DME Presentation

[Stony Lane]

Could the moderators actually allow us to say "LM" so we could have an intelligent conversation?

 

How does "A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want" add to the subject in a positive way?

[Racinready300ex]

17 hours ago, HighSpeedFocusedFailure said:

Does anyone think Production being killed will have an effect on the number of new shooters that join the sport over the next few years? 
 

I was in one of my LGSs the other day and the overwhelming majority of pistols in the counter were all iron sighted. 
 

Between reading in USPSA-centric areas online and YT content you’d think that irons were all but gone. Even the enormous counters at BassPro are full of irons guns. 
 

I feel we have a huge shortage of participants headed our way, noobs usually don’t want to fork out another 4-600 to mill and outfit their only blaster with an optic. 

 

Since the NY Bruen case my state became shall issue and requires people to shoot a qualification to get their permit. I work with a company occasionally as a RO on their range and as a instructor. Some weeks we were qualifying 50+ people. At a typical class of 50 I'd see maybe 1 or 2 revolvers, a couple 40's or 45's and maybe a couple Optics. Wasn't crazy to see no optics. The bulk of the people come with iron sighted high cap 9mm handguns. 

 

Last week I did a fundamentals of self defense class with 10 people, 3 had optics. These were more serious students than a typical state required class and still most were iron sights. All were 9mm, only one was a low cap gun. Of the 3 red dot shooters only one actually carried with a dot.

 

I know we like to think irons are dead because of the circles we run in, but really in the outside world they're alive and well. Maybe that will change down the road, but I think it's still a little ways out. 

[Racinready300ex]

18 minutes ago, Stony Lane said:

Could the moderators actually allow us to say "LM" so we could have an intelligent conversation?

 

How does "A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want" add to the subject in a positive way?

 

I've been typing it out L-minor. Which I think get's the point across and doesn't get changed. 

[whan]

 

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Since the NY Bruen case my state became shall issue and requires people to shoot a qualification to get their permit. I work with a company occasionally as a RO on their range and as a instructor. Some weeks we were qualifying 50+ people. At a typical class of 50 I'd see maybe 1 or 2 revolvers, a couple 40's or 45's and maybe a couple Optics. Wasn't crazy to see no optics. The bulk of the people come with iron sighted high cap 9mm handguns. 

 

Last week I did a fundamentals of self defense class with 10 people, 3 had optics. These were more serious students than a typical state required class and still most were iron sights. All were 9mm, only one was a low cap gun. Of the 3 red dot shooters only one actually carried with a dot.

 

I know we like to think irons are dead because of the circles we run in, but really in the outside world they're alive and well. Maybe that will change down the road, but I think it's still a little ways out. 

 

I agree with this. Enthusiasts, especially younger ones, are the most likely to embrace optics shooting and ditch iron sights. But it will be a while until irons becomes a small minority of guns across the general public

 

A good parallel is optics for rifles (specifically modern rifles like ARs). Rifle optics only started being issued in larger quantities to the military in the late 1990s / early 2000s via the ACOG and Aimpoint M68. I think it took probably until around 2010 for most units to all be issued optics. Similarly, it feels like it took until around 2010 where almost all civilian rifles had optics as well.

 

I think in the pistol optic universe, we are somewhere similar to what the rifle optic universe was in the early 2000s. With Big Army adopting the P320 and Sig also making the M17 optic (which has yet to be fielded), we are now on the same point in the adoption curve as when the ACOG/Aimpoint were fielded to non-SF units. I'd bet it's going to be another decade or so until the large majority of pistols have optics on them, and irons are a minority

Edited July 19, 2023 by whan

[ddc]

2 hours ago, Stony Lane said:

Could the moderators actually allow us to say "LM" so we could have an intelligent conversation?

 

How does "A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want" add to the subject in a positive way?

 

It doesn't. It pre-casts the subject in a negative light. I imagine that is what was intended. 

Congratulations; it appears to have worked.

[MikeBurgess]

One thing that maybe we are not taking into account, what are pistol shooting enthusiasts owning and buying? We are a niche sport that is not the cup of tea of the general pistol buying public, when you sort down to the tiny sliver of gun owners that are or may be interested in competing in USPSA what do they own or want an excuse to buy?

 

 

[Joe4d]

29 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

One thing that maybe we are not taking into account, what are pistol shooting enthusiasts owning and buying? We are a niche sport that is not the cup of tea of the general pistol buying public, when you sort down to the tiny sliver of gun owners that are or may be interested in competing in USPSA what do they own or want an excuse to buy?

 

 

Well USPSA has never taken that in to account. Why start now ?
Opened the door to massive competition ( IDPA)  because there was no  production, created production created production, then promptly turned it into No SA Limited and defeated the entire point of the division.. Then missed the chance again by not doing away with the 10 round limit when laws changed.
Created a SS division for the people you mentioned then completely screwed it up with the minor 10 nonsense.. Your enthusiasts had 45 1911's other calibers were almost unheard of,, and looking at gun shelves, non 45's are very rare,,,, yet you have to have a non 45 to be competitive..
Made every revolver shooter's gear and overwhelming vast majority of service revolvers non competitive with the same idiocy, with the 8 rounds.
Now they have 2 CO divisions separated by nothing relevant

 

[RJH]

2 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Well USPSA has never taken that in to account. Why start now ?
Opened the door to massive competition ( IDPA)  because there was no  production, created production created production, then promptly turned it into No SA Limited and defeated the entire point of the division.. Then missed the chance again by not doing away with the 10 round limit when laws changed.
Created a SS division for the people you mentioned then completely screwed it up with the minor 10 nonsense.. Your enthusiasts had 45 1911's other calibers were almost unheard of,, and looking at gun shelves, non 45's are very rare,,,, yet you have to have a non 45 to be competitive..
Made every revolver shooter's gear and overwhelming vast majority of service revolvers non competitive with the same idiocy, with the 8 rounds.
Now they have 2 CO divisions separated by nothing relevant

 

 

 

Single stack was 10 minor/eight major from the beginning and major has been competitive in single stack from the beginning

Edited July 20, 2023 by RJH

[shred]

Single Stack nats for decades was a total loser shooting Minor.  If they could have figured out a way to disadvantage .40 Major they would have.

[Southpaw]

8 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

One thing that maybe we are not taking into account, what are pistol shooting enthusiasts owning and buying? We are a niche sport that is not the cup of tea of the general pistol buying public, when you sort down to the tiny sliver of gun owners that are or may be interested in competing in USPSA what do they own or want an excuse to buy?

 

You already know the answer to this.  It's the same category of handguns that has been the #1 selling category of handguns consistently for the past ~30 years:  high cap, iron sighted, 9mm handguns.

[Racinready300ex]

13 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

One thing that maybe we are not taking into account, what are pistol shooting enthusiasts owning and buying? We are a niche sport that is not the cup of tea of the general pistol buying public, when you sort down to the tiny sliver of gun owners that are or may be interested in competing in USPSA what do they own or want an excuse to buy?

 

 

 

I think a large portion of new uspsa shooters start out as that general public and over time move into the enthusiast section over time. 

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

14 hours ago, ddc said:

 

It doesn't. It pre-casts the subject in a negative light. I imagine that is what was intended. 

Congratulations; it appears to have worked.

 

For many years there were constant threads about is L-minor competitive, or should I shoot major or minor in limited. And then there was the threads about making a new division for minor. This was back when limited was one of the biggest divisions and there was seemingly no reason to change it. 

 

I think it was a attempt to stop the constant threads discussing exactly the same thing over and over again. 

[shred]

Yes, there were some people that would not shut up about it...

 

"here's my load data for the 147.... and oh yeah, we need lm-minor"

 

How about instead of designing yet another division soon to be dominated by metal-gripped custom 2011s because 'easy', we come up with a division that actually works for the 'vast majority' instead of a generic bucket to put them in because nothing else fits?

 

 

[RJH]

22 minutes ago, shred said:

Yes, there were some people that would not shut up about it...

 

"here's my load data for the 147.... and oh yeah, we need lm-minor"

 

How about instead of designing yet another division soon to be dominated by metal-gripped custom 2011s because 'easy', we come up with a division that actually works for the 'vast majority' instead of a generic bucket to put them in because nothing else fits?

 

 

 

So, what's your thoughts on that division? Do you think ipsc production would draw numbers in uspsa? Or is current production rules but increased Mag capacity the right answer? Or something completely different?

 

 

It really does seem like a higher capacity iron sight 9 mil division might be able to get some legs, just exactly what those rules would be I don't know. I am genuinely curious on your thoughts though

[shred]

I would bump production capacity up, have a trigger pull minimum lighter than any factory gun out of box, don't-care the action type, otherwise similar rules to Production and see what happens, but I'm not one of the people beating the lm-minor drum all day long either.

 

[Racinready300ex]

50 minutes ago, shred said:

I would bump production capacity up, have a trigger pull minimum lighter than any factory gun out of box, don't-care the action type, otherwise similar rules to Production and see what happens, but I'm not one of the people beating the lm-minor drum all day long either.

 

 

I would love this division. 

[ddc]

4 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I think it was a attempt to stop the constant threads discussing exactly the same thing over and over again. 

 

 

But isn't that what internet forums are all about?  lol... 

[MikeBurgess]

3 hours ago, RJH said:

 

So, what's your thoughts on that division? Do you think ipsc production would draw numbers in uspsa? Or is current production rules but increased Mag capacity the right answer? Or something completely different?

 

 

It really does seem like a higher capacity iron sight 9 mil division might be able to get some legs, just exactly what those rules would be I don't know. I am genuinely curious on your thoughts though

I would bet that a iron sighted 9mm division L-Minor or Production like or whatever would quickly come to edge out SS revolver L10 and compete with PCC for smallest actual division.

 

my experience with new shooters in my area has been most new competitors show up with a 9mm high cap gun, half of those have optics half of those are now LO guns not CO guns (normally magwells were the issue) the other half are shooting whatever plastic gun they owned. those that stick around find a division that they like and buy gear better suited to it. 

 

This weekends match registration so far (range rules preclude PCC (yes its dumb but its what we have) )

CO 36

O 19

Lim 8

LO 6

Prd 5 

Revo 5

SS 2

 

61 optics shooters vs 20 irons and im pretty sure if revos were allowed optics 4 of those would change columns

 

my $.02 trying to save production seems like a lost cause, when it draws similar numbers to Revo

 

 

[MikeBurgess]

2 hours ago, shred said:

I would bump production capacity up, have a trigger pull minimum lighter than any factory gun out of box, don't-care the action type, otherwise similar rules to Production and see what happens, but I'm not one of the people beating the lm-minor drum all day long either.

 

why have a pull weight then?

or do you mean like a 4.5lb pull so tuned 2011s are out along with a large portion of the striker guns with trigger work?

 

[MikeBurgess]

My best solution to the high cap 9mm guns go where thing is in both LO and CO remove the optic required BS and just say optic allowed. 

 

[RJH]

1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

My best solution to the high cap 9mm guns go where thing is in both LO and CO remove the optic required BS and just say optic allowed. 

 

 

That seems reasonable. I mean there's always things to look at like allowing Sao or not, allowing magwells or not, how much do you fill the mags etc, but however you go about it I think something needs to be done because USPSA is basically eliminating the most common gun type in America.

 

I know people would say they could shoot in production or l10, but they don't. I don't know if that reason is based on capacity alone, or if it's based on lack of shooters in those divisions. I do think an iron sights, high cap, minor only division, would be the most popular Iron sights division in short order, regardless of just how you adjusted the rule set

 

Edited to add: I misread your post I quoted. I thought you meant take either carryouts, or limited optics and remove the requirement for a site and create a new division based upon the rest of that rule set. I think either of those options would be just fine. I think just removing the requirement for the site in the divisions now would be no different for the guy shooting an Iron sights glock 17 then when he shows up for limited today. In other words he would be at a significant competitive disadvantage and would only shoot an Iron sights gun in an optics division once or twice

 

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by RJH

[Racinready300ex]

19 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

My best solution to the high cap 9mm guns go where thing is in both LO and CO remove the optic required BS and just say optic allowed. 

 

 

That doesn't really give the iron guys a place to compete, might as well leave it like it is now.

 

Most of the time around here the top CO shooter beats the top Limited shooter. So allowing iron sighted minor guns to compete where iron sighted major guns can't win isn't really a option.

 

That's the same as the argument to let CO shooters shoot in open. 

 

 

[Southpaw]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

I do think an iron sights, high cap, minor only division, would be the most popular Iron sights division in short order, regardless of just how you adjusted the rule set

 

[shred]

6 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

why have a pull weight then?

or do you mean like a 4.5lb pull so tuned 2011s are out along with a large portion of the striker guns with trigger work?

 

As you know, it's literally 30 seconds to make a 2011 pull heavier and that includes looking for the danged pin punch...  Dropping heavier springs into a striker gun likewise is not difficult, and LM is for the "vast under-served majority" of gun store pistols, right?  Those aren't sub 3.5 lb triggers these days are they?  I haven't been to a gun store in a while-- last time was a year ago right after Nats when we and Nils & co were kicking around Bass Pro killing time.  The clerk was at least on the ball enough to say they were all sold out of Caniks

 

3.5 lb seems fine with me.  People that want to rock custom whatevers, there's a different place for that unless the real goal of Lm-Minor is to make another place for special race-tuned pistols you can't buy in a store, but this time with iron sights?

 

 

[Ben3]

On 7/19/2023 at 3:21 PM, Racinready300ex said:

I know we like to think irons are dead because of the circles we run in, but really in the outside world they're alive and well.

 

This is something I've really been wondering about. People point to Production and Limited declining as a sign that irons are on the way out, but both have significant handicaps, either capacity or having to shoot .40 which is unpalatable to most new members.

 

It's easy to think that what we see at matches is "normal" but inevitably it's a side effect of the rules. Nobody outside our sport uses a BOSS/Taylor Freelance/Henning style holster hanger. They either have the holster mounted directly to the belt, or use a leg strap style dropped holster. But within the sport, those types of dropped and offset hangers are very common, because of the particularities of our rules. Not saying that's a good or bad rule, just that it's ubiquitous to us and non-existent outside of matches.

 

According to Jake's numbers, 8k new members joined in 2022. How many of them had a double stack, iron sighted 9mm that they might have been happy to compete with until they saw that everyone was shooting CO and they had to buy one of those or be irrelevant?

 

People say that the members who already have CO guns are unlikely to take the dots and mag extensions off and shoot Production with them. Perhaps. But new people join all the time. We might as well do them the service of at least having a double-stack, irons, 9mm division that doesn't have a capacity restriction straight outta 1994.