DME Presentation

[Racinready300ex]

Lot of info here.

 

It's interesting that only 15% of members shoot limited vs 25% of non members. The rest of the divisions are more similar member vs non. What makes Limited stand out like that? I wonder how many of those non members are shooting A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want and maybe aren't members since they know they can't be competitive with what they currently shoot.

 

CO is clearly the division bringing in new members. Limited is pretty high, but again I'd guess many of those are shooting production guns with full mags. 

 

https://uspsa.org/documents/minutes/20230627 DME Presentation.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1AfgdtWwlnvtvXc8YRHmYRDuCic63dgbRSzc-WXwGs0F2UUhnmNkWZ0TM

[Bosshoss]

Many new shooters show up at a match and get thrown in limited because they don't have enough mags or pouches to shoot Production. Sometimes others talk them into limited so they don't have to do so many mag changes. This has been going on for years and is nothing new.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Bosshoss

[robchavous]

Limited is usually the catch all for new people if you're shooting irons.  We've got people who are gun club members that only shoot the various matches at our club.  The uspsa match is just one of those and they don't see a benefit to joining the org. 

[shred]

Yup, unless you're a SS or Production shooter with all the belt pouches, show up with iron sights and you get to be in Limited.

 

 

 

[Joe4d]

And why I have been saying for a decade, should just have a A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want division if the goal is growth.
People want to shoot 9mm home modified production style guns with full magazines.  SHoulda done that instead of Carry optics and Limited optics..  Would be by far the largest division by now. 
Instead we keep telling new people to either shoot at a minor score disadvantage or only put 10 rounds in your gun that holds 20..
Then we wonder why they dont come back or dont join the org

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

Funny. Lotta folks were vocal about not wanting LO.  Me included at first.  But when I started thinking about it most of the new shooters I see come out with a red dot equipped gun and a magwell attached.  I use to have to toss them into open minor or get them to remove the magwell.   Seems like if that’s what is showing up then it kinda needs a division 

[Makicjf]

6 hours ago, Joe4d said:

And why I have been saying for a decade, should just have a A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want division if the goal is growth.
People want to shoot 9mm home modified production style guns with full magazines.  SHoulda done that instead of Carry optics and Limited optics..  Would be by far the largest division by now. 
Instead we keep telling new people to either shoot at a minor score disadvantage or only put 10 rounds in your gun that holds 20..
Then we wonder why they dont come back or dont join the org

This .

 

[Racinready300ex]

13 hours ago, Bosshoss said:

Many new shooters show up at a match and get thrown in limited because they don't have enough mags or pouches to shoot Production. Sometimes others talk them into limited so they don't have to do so many mag changes. This has been going on for years and is nothing new.

 

I completely agree, I just wonder over the last few years we keep adding divisions for the new shooters etc. But it seems like maybe the divisions we have are a little broken for people to end up dumped into limited which is likely a dead end for them. But if production had a reasonable capacity that might change things. 

 

Clearly Limited is hurting when so many of the people shooting it are either new and get pushed there or are shooting uncompetitive minor guns because it's what they have. I think our divisions are kind of broken right now. 

[Racinready300ex]

8 hours ago, OpenshooterMclass4lyfe said:

Funny. Lotta folks were vocal about not wanting LO.  Me included at first.  But when I started thinking about it most of the new shooters I see come out with a red dot equipped gun and a magwell attached.  I use to have to toss them into open minor or get them to remove the magwell.   Seems like if that’s what is showing up then it kinda needs a division 

 

Since some of these numbers include pre LO. I wonder how many of the new shooters shooting open where really shooting LO guns. I was surprised the number of new open shooters was so high (10%) but I hadn't put two and two together to realize it's probably LO shooters from earlier in the year. 

[truespode]

9 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Then we wonder why they dont come back or dont join the org

 

I have dealt with a lot of new shooters lately. I'd say of the 15 or so I have met at a match about 5 or 6 have gone on to shoot more matches and a couple have become members for classification. 

Small sample but compare that locally the amount of tenured members who have let their membership lapse but still shoot locals and anecdotally from what I see we are losing more members than we are gaining. They still shoot just not as much.

I wonder not only why new people don't come back and don't join but also what is turning tenured members away?

[Racinready300ex]

12 minutes ago, truespode said:

 

I have dealt with a lot of new shooters lately. I'd say of the 15 or so I have met at a match about 5 or 6 have gone on to shoot more matches and a couple have become members for classification. 

Small sample but compare that locally the amount of tenured members who have let their membership lapse but still shoot locals and anecdotally from what I see we are losing more members than we are gaining. They still shoot just not as much.

I wonder not only why new people don't come back and don't join but also what is turning tenured members away?

 

Maybe it would benefit clubs to send new shooters a survey asking what they liked, what they didn't and if they plan to return. The only way to know why that happens really is to ask. 

[motosapiens]

12 minutes ago, truespode said:

I wonder not only why new people don't come back and don't join but also what is turning tenured members away?

good question. we don't really have that problem, but we put on pretty good matches.

 

for sure we get a percentage of new shooters who thought they were good shooters and are dismayed to find out how much better and faster everyone else is, and some of them probably cry and go home (especially cops, lol), but we see alot of new shooters sticking around.

[THS]

19 minutes ago, truespode said:

 

Small sample but compare that locally the amount of tenured members who have let their membership lapse but still shoot locals and anecdotally from what I see we are losing more members than we are gaining. They still shoot just not as much.

I wonder not only why new people don't come back and don't join but also what is turning tenured members away?

I'm back after a nearly 20 year layoff.   I have been waitlisted twice out of three attempts to register already.   I hear that there are limited slots available, and this seems to bear that out.  So, is that part of the mix as well?

 

Also, seems a little off that a USPSA member gets waitlisted for a USPSA match and non USPSA members are allowed to shoot....  The club doesn't care I'm sure, as that saves them the tiny activity fee- they don't charge less for non USPSA shooters so they are keeping the fee.

 

Just one more variable in the mix.

[Unibrain]

3 minutes ago, THS said:

I'm back after a nearly 20 year layoff.   I have been waitlisted twice out of three attempts to register already.   I hear that there are limited slots available, and this seems to bear that out.  So, is that part of the mix as well?

 

Also, seems a little off that a USPSA member gets waitlisted for a USPSA match and non USPSA members are allowed to shoot....  

Our club matches fill up in a day or two and are on waitlist for a several days before the match.  We use the waitlist as more of a holding pen to help balance out squads.  Everyone who registers gets in the match.    Matches are in the 70+ and we've not had unusually long days.  If/when we push 100 we may revisit the policy.

 

As for giving a preference to USPSA members, that's an interesting idea but means more work for the registration dude, i.e. me. 

 

 

[motosapiens]

7 minutes ago, THS said:

I'm back after a nearly 20 year layoff.   I have been waitlisted twice out of three attempts to register already.   I hear that there are limited slots available, and this seems to bear that out.  So, is that part of the mix as well?

 

Also, seems a little off that a USPSA member gets waitlisted for a USPSA match and non USPSA members are allowed to shoot....  The club doesn't care I'm sure, as that saves them the tiny activity fee- they don't charge less for non USPSA shooters so they are keeping the fee.

 

Just one more variable in the mix.

the club is required to pay the activity fee for *all* shooters, not just uspsa members.

[Racinready300ex]

26 minutes ago, THS said:

I'm back after a nearly 20 year layoff.   I have been waitlisted twice out of three attempts to register already.   I hear that there are limited slots available, and this seems to bear that out.  So, is that part of the mix as well?

 

Also, seems a little off that a USPSA member gets waitlisted for a USPSA match and non USPSA members are allowed to shoot....  The club doesn't care I'm sure, as that saves them the tiny activity fee- they don't charge less for non USPSA shooters so they are keeping the fee.

 

Just one more variable in the mix.

 

You live in a bad part of the country for getting into matches. That is a interesting idea for clubs to give members slots over non-members. That would give a perk to us members who struggle to get into matches. A lot of matches in the north east you need to set a reminder in your phone and register the moment it opens or you're sitting out this month. 

 

20 minutes ago, Unibrain said:

Our club matches fill up in a day or two and are on waitlist for a several days before the match.  We use the waitlist as more of a holding pen to help balance out squads.  Everyone who registers gets in the match.    Matches are in the 70+ and we've not had unusually long days.  If/when we push 100 we may revisit the policy.

 

 

Here the wait list is usually people who aren't going to get to shoot unless someone backs out. Clubs set the cut off based on what they feel is a reasonable squad size. I've shot several matches in 20 man squads. Honestly it's not the most fun thing to do. It makes going to a major with a squad of only 10-12 seem nice and fast. 

[THS]

50 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

the club is required to pay the activity fee for *all* shooters, not just uspsa members.

 

Good.  

 

USPSA membership being a factor in getting a slot might get more people to actually join. 

 

Do, or could, non members get slots to the Nationals?  

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

15 minutes ago, THS said:

 

Good.  

 

USPSA membership being a factor in getting a slot might get more people to actually join. 

 

Do, or could, non members get slots to the Nationals?  

 

 

 

Non members can only shoot level 1. 

 

Being a member get's you a magazine you don't read, a classification system and allows you to shoot majors. 

 

Of course if you're shooting a production gun with minor ammo in limited your classifier is going to be skewed, and you wont be competitive even within your skill level at majors. So the only benefit to those people is the magazine they don't read. 

[motosapiens]

30 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Of course if you're shooting a production gun with minor ammo in limited your classifier is going to be skewed, and you wont be competitive even within your skill level at majors. So the only benefit to those people is the magazine they don't read. 

 

meh. minor vs major is what, maybe 5%? not really that big a deal to noobs who suck anyway.

[konkapot]

Also odd that so many join but then never shoot a match. I was surprised at that. 

[Dazhi]

11 hours ago, Joe4d said:

People want to shoot 9mm home modified production style guns with full magazines.  SHoulda done that instead of Carry optics and Limited optics..  Would be by far the largest division by now. 

 

I believe this is still true even if they make a 140mm iron minor division today.  Many people are saying iron divisions are dead.  I don't agree.  There is simply not a single high cap iron minor division.  Optics now have 2 high cap minor divisions.  Why the discrepancy? Maybe it depends on who is more vocal in asking for new divisions.

[Racinready300ex]

36 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

meh. minor vs major is what, maybe 5%? not really that big a deal to noobs who suck anyway.

 

I know not everyone can be on your level but 5% can be a pretty big hurtle at a major. At CO nations the difference is 65% and 70% was 61 shooters. i'm sure there are a ton of guys that shot that match that would do anything to have finished 5% higher in the standings. 

[Racinready300ex]

40 minutes ago, Dazhi said:

 

I believe this is still true even if they make a 140mm iron minor division today.  Many people are saying iron divisions are dead.  I don't agree.  There is simply not a single high cap iron minor division.  Optics now have 2 high cap minor divisions.  Why the discrepancy? Maybe it depends on who is more vocal in asking for new divisions.

 

I think it's possible you're right. No way to prove it with what we have, just a feeling I guess.

 

I'll probably dabble in some Limited shooting a production gun later this year. I think it'll be fun, but I realize it's unlikely I'll win a major like that. 

[truespode]

1 hour ago, konkapot said:

Also odd that so many join but then never shoot a match. I was surprised at that. 

 

That doesn't surprise me as much. I'm a member of IDPA and GSSF and only shot one official match of each. Shot a few outlaw IDPA indoors but focus mostly on USPSA and PCSL. I join a lot of other orgs to support them and for when I get a hair to shoot one.

[sc68cal]

3 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

Maybe it would benefit clubs to send new shooters a survey asking what they liked, what they didn't and if they plan to return. The only way to know why that happens really is to ask. 

I think this is something national HQ should be doing, since match directors are already doing a lot to run their club matches. Obviously, the issue is how to solicit feedback from new shooters if they are not new members, they'd have to find a way to actually contact them. The easiest thing to do would be contact them via Practiscore, but that would require coordination with PS.

 

It's a good idea still, and it should be investigated, even with some of the hurdles.