DME Presentation

[shred]

44 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

i have seen zero open shooters actually switch to CO or LO long term. I have seen a few shoot CO for a month or two to prep for co nationals, but then they immediately go back to open. 

 

For someone already shooting open, I don't see any attraction whatsoever to spend similar money on a minor-only uncompensated division.

I shot CO for about 6 months after the World Shoot (where I shot Open and did ok in geezer).  As such I see some attractiveness to shooting LO with approximately the same grip, trigger and dot but with less noise & ammo hassles than an Open gun.

 

I could shoot minor Open, I shot that with some pseudo-LO pistols as an experiment before LO was a thing, but it's a loser on the results.  I like shooting Open Major, but I find myself not liking the rest of it so much anymore.  If it wasn't for Open nats coming up, I'd likely be shooting LO in the summer heat we have way too much of around here just for the lower hassle factor.

[MikeBurgess]

36 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

 

Trends show us people want to shoot 9mm minor high cap guns for sure. Do they care about the optic or not can't really be determined with the data we have. We can look to IDPA, where CO is also the most popular division. But they have only one optic division and 5 iron sight division. The next 3 majors I'm shooting CO is about 50% of the match, the other 50% are shooting irons just split between several divisions. So in these examples is the Optic really more popular? 

 

so optics guns are equal to or bigger than all other guns combined? that sounds like its the optic that people want. doesn't IDPA also lets SSP have 15 rounds now, so no reload on most stages and still getting crushed by CO at 10 rounds, seems the answer is pretty clear.

[Racinready300ex]

Just now, MikeBurgess said:

so optics guns are equal to or bigger than all other guns combined? that sounds like its the optic that people want. doesn't IDPA also lets SSP have 15 rounds now, so no reload on most stages and still getting crushed by CO at 10 rounds, seems the answer is pretty clear.

 

 

 

 

Hopefully they make that change allowing L10 to have a dot. Then everyone still shooting low cap will just move there as clearly based on the data capacity isn't a issue it's the lack of optics. Only logical conclusion for sure. 

 

 

[shred]

Optics make everything easier.  People (in general) like easier.  Hicap is easier too, as is cheap low recoil 9mm and cheap(ish) factory pistols.  The only thing CO doesn't have going for it on the 'Easy Button' scale is the triggers and magwells that LO has.

 

As long as LO doesn't become a place fit only for $3000+ custom 2011s, it'll do very well just because of the easy factor.

[ddc]

2 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Maybe. You are going to lose the few weirdos like myself who love lo cap minor because of the additional accuracy, stage planning and reloading requirements involved. I suspect there are not enough of us to matter.

 

What I don't see is why higher cap would attract anyone away from CO or pcc or major scoring or whatever.  

 

Yeah, I agree. I'm having a hard time visualizing any combination of rule updates that would have any significant effect on Production participation.

[MikeBurgess]

31 minutes ago, shred said:

 

 

As long as LO doesn't become a place fit only for $3000+ custom 2011s, it'll do very well just because of the easy factor.

the only hope I hold out for LO cost is with the Prodigy coming on line a entry level 2011 isn't really that much further up the price chain than a 320 with a TXG grip

[Bigzona]

Just now, MikeBurgess said:

the only hope I hold out for LO cost is with the Prodigy coming on line a entry level 2011 isn't really that much further up the price chain than a 320 with a TXG grip

 

+1

 

Also, locally I'm seeing plenty of our top CO performers just throwing a magwell on their polymer guns (and in many cases even the shadow 2 shooters are doing the same) and just shooting LO.

[MikeBurgess]

45 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

 

 

Hopefully they make that change allowing L10 to have a dot. Then everyone still shooting low cap will just move there as clearly based on the data capacity isn't a issue it's the lack of optics. Only logical conclusion for sure. 

 

 

of all the ideas they presented I think this is the best of them.

 

 

 

[ddc]

9 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

the only hope I hold out for LO cost is with the Prodigy coming on line a entry level 2011 isn't really that much further up the price chain than a 320 with a TXG grip

 

I'm wondering if there will be other entry level 2011 options from one or more of the main stream manufacturers.

[shred]

15 minutes ago, ddc said:

 

I'm wondering if there will be other entry level 2011 options from one or more of the main stream manufacturers.

EAA is selling Checkmate mags in their branded bags, so there's likely a Girsan "2311" coming in at Prodigy prices.  There's also the Platypus and I think another "2011" using SIG mags.  Plus things like the RIA 5.0 might be a contender and the Rock Island 9mm Para clone is all metal and well under $1K.

 

The base Stacatto is (just) under $2K.

 

 

[whan]

@Racinready300ex I think we agree on pretty much all of the points

 

Agree that irons minor-only mid/hi-cap hasn't been tested out yet, all of the minor-only hi-cap divisions have been optics only. So I think it's worth running some test (maybe optics into L10 as mentioned given it's low impact) to determine what's the bigger driving factor of popularity - irons or optics

 

Anecdotally, I've seen most of the better LO shooters at my range come from Open. In speaking to them, it doesn't seem like they're moving to LO permanently, but it is interesting food for thought. Perhaps Open shooters are more likely to get custom 2011s built in the first place, hence are more willing to try it out?

 

On my own end, I came up shooting USPSA in single stack minor for 3 years, and only switched to CO last year as SS/locap was dead. I did end up really enjoying the dot as well as more than 10 rounds (locap is just a bit too punishing in hindsight), though I'd probably be just as happy with 15rds as 140mm today. I am planning to move to LO though, just since I really want to return to a custom 1911/2011 platform.

Edited July 26, 2023 by whan

[Racinready300ex]

@whan I know a few guys that would shoot L10-Optics. Most will admit they'd be goofing off when they do but they'd still do it. Maybe we'd see some cross over from IDPA shooters too, although I see more of them just getting 140's and going to LO as IDPA's CO is just LO-10 

 

 

[motosapiens]

7 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

 

 

Hopefully they make that change allowing L10 to have a dot. Then everyone still shooting low cap will just move there as clearly based on the data capacity isn't a issue it's the lack of optics. Only logical conclusion for sure. 

 

 

i agree with that. L10 is dumb, but L10 with a dot would be less dumb. 10 round 45 ftw!

[Ben3]

11 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

Trends show us people want to shoot 9mm minor high cap guns for sure. Do they care about the optic or not can't really be determined with the data we have.

 

This. People point to Limited and Production as showing people don't want to shoot irons anymore, but each has its own annoyance. Either having to put 5 pouches on your belt, or having to source and shoot .40. Would a 9mm irons division that only required three pouches on your belt like CO be more appealing? It couldn't possibly hurt.

[IHAVEGAS]

8 hours ago, Ben3 said:

 

This. People point to Limited and Production as showing people don't want to shoot irons anymore, but each has its own annoyance. Either having to put 5 pouches on your belt, or having to source and shoot .40. Would a 9mm irons division that only required three pouches on your belt like CO be more appealing? It couldn't possibly hurt.

 

I don't think that the cost and weight of 2 magazines is a thing, at least if it is I have never heard mention of it. Not needing to worry about magazine and spring maintenance is something I've enjoyed after coming from limited. 

Agree that some like shooting major and others do not. 

[motosapiens]

9 hours ago, Ben3 said:

 

This. People point to Limited and Production as showing people don't want to shoot irons anymore, but each has its own annoyance. Either having to put 5 pouches on your belt, or having to source and shoot .40. Would a 9mm irons division that only required three pouches on your belt like CO be more appealing? It couldn't possibly hurt.

is shooting .40 really that painful for some people? I buy 40 bullets from the same place I get 9mm bullets, for about 1.5 cents more each, and i get more points for them. I also find reloading 40 to be easier than reloading 9, with less brass issues, and less physical force required at the press.

 

in real life I don't hear anyone complaining about calibre, just about iron sights. everyone seems to like dots (and new divisions) right now. I don't think LO and CO will die off like pcc did after the brief fad, but I do think things will stabilize after a couple years.

[shred]

26 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

is shooting .40 really that painful for some people? I buy 40 bullets from the same place I get 9mm bullets, for about 1.5 cents more each, and i get more points for them. I also find reloading 40 to be easier than reloading 9, with less brass issues, and less physical force required at the press.

Around here .40 brass isn't carpeting the range like 9 is, so it's not free for the picking up.  Bullets cost a bit more then you have to get dies and rejigger the press and then find a chrono to verify Major PF and at first it sort of sucks to shoot until your hands get used to it.  Not a big bar, but enough of a hassle the lazy people won't do it. 

 

There are lots of 9 shooters at matches that don't reload or even have a reloader these days.  That was pretty much unheard of back in the day.

 

[Racinready300ex]

When I shoot CO at a club match I start with one mag on my belt. Shooting Production I have 4. It's not a huge deal, but it is a extra $90 in pouches and $110 in mags. I just use factory plastic base pads for Prod, 5 fancy base pads would add $125 or more. Not the end of the world but it's there. It's more annoying looking for the 3-4 mags I dropped on the stage and then cleaning them if needed. Versus just finding/cleaning one. 

 

40 for me was a hassle, harder to find brass, more expensive bullets. Loading for 2 calibers and switching back and forth was a pain. I could buy a complete second press like some people do but that didn't seem worth it to me. But I agree with Moto, most people in real life do not complain about caliber because they just shoot 9mm and forget 40 exists. 

 

Looking at recent matches in my area for 40 cal shooters. The club 117 miles south of me had  3 out of 40 shooters. The club 85 miles north of me had 1 out of 43 shooters and the club 110 miles west of here had 2 out of 55. That's a pretty big area for 6 shooters out of 138. And then obviously the 2 IDPA clubs and 1 outlaw match locally total zero 40 cal shooters out of maybe 70 shooters combined. 40 is alive and well in this area. 

 

Edit to add there is another club 30 miles away I always for get exists because it takes 4 hours to get to because I don't own a boat. Anyway they had 1 Limited major shooter at their last match. 

Edited July 27, 2023 by Racinready300ex

[MikeBurgess]

Production is dead and Limited is not far behind. 

when you see the 60% of shooters in CO understand that most of them used to shoot Limited or Production. 

the ones that shot limited had the ammo figured out and none that I have talked to switched because they didn't want to load 40 they switched because they wanted a dot. the guys I know that are still really shooting limited are doing it because they want to do it while they can still see the sights

[Racinready300ex]

19 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Production is dead and Limited is not far behind. 

 

 

Limited is dead.

 

In the matches I mentioned above there were almost double the production shooters vs limited major shooters. And the handful of Minor guys in limited where shooting production guns with 140's. 

 

I can't think of anyone who's come into the sport recently and chose to got into Limited, and I don't know anyone switching from another division to Limited. 

 

To make things worse, all divisions are probably seeing inflated numbers currently now that the only real Nationals is over. 

[Rookie]

FYI... the current (per Practiscore) Division registrants for the 2023 A2 Desert Classic.

 

[TaterHead]

I’m one of those dead guys you talk about in this thread. I shoot 40 major in limited. I love it. I can reload 40 for way cheaper than you can buy 9 mm. I have everything invested in 40 major, with no desire to start spending money on a new setup. I find the iron sight game to be far more of a challenge. I routinely beat open, co, and pcc shooters. Not all, but many. I have a lot of fun. Oh, yeah, I’m 71. I really don’t see what all the speculation about my death is about.

[Racinready300ex]

13 minutes ago, TaterHead said:

I’m one of those dead guys you talk about in this thread. I shoot 40 major in limited. I love it. I can reload 40 for way cheaper than you can buy 9 mm. I have everything invested in 40 major, with no desire to start spending money on a new setup. I find the iron sight game to be far more of a challenge. I routinely beat open, co, and pcc shooters. Not all, but many. I have a lot of fun. Oh, yeah, I’m 71. I really don’t see what all the speculation about my death is about.

 

Limited is dead, but I don't think it needs to go anywhere or change. Production needs a slight tweak because it's current rule set is kind of silly. That slight tweak will hurt Limited numbers but wont effect real limited shooters. I'm sure you don't care that you beat the guys shooting minor right? So if they left and shot somewhere else it wouldn't hurt your feelings any. 

[whan]

I predict Limited will eventually go the way Single Stack did. The sport has always evolved to fit what is relevant in the modern pistol market. Not that I'm old enough to have experienced it, but I'm told there was a time when single stack 45 1911s ruled supreme in USPSA and were the dominant / most popular firearm used, as well as among pistol enthusiasts of the time more broadly. But as new technology develops, it's inevitable that the stuff that used to be popular will eventual die out

 

The fact that the original 2011 design was based around a double-stack 45ACP, but then ended up being dominated by 40S&W should provide hints that the popularity of 9mm 2011s will do the same thing to 40.

[Racinready300ex]

I think it's kind of amazing that 2011's are still the best gun for competition. And they're not drastically different from what they were in the 90's. More reliable, better mags sure.

 

The biggest change is probably dumping the plastic grip that was intended to make the gun lighter for a steel grip to make even these minor guns weight north of 50 oz empty.