Limited optics Vs Open

[pskys2]

1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

The majority of you that voted for Major in LO is because you most likely have a 40 for limited you are willing to put a dot on.  

 

No one to my knowledge currently makes a 40 with an optic cut on it.  This was brought up in the discussions about this topic before.  Sales in 40 caliber guns has plummeted.  Very few are even offered on the market today.    Only people shooting Limited are really shooting 40 anymore.  No one is buying those guns.  Like it or not 40 is dying.  Those are facts.  

 

As far as optic surviving as a slide ride option of a 40 I don't think the data is out there to say one way or another.  I would imagine if it was a minor load it would be any worse than a 9mm slide ride optic.  Optics on slide rides using Major PF I surmise it would create shorter life spans for optics, but like I said I do not think anyone knows for certain.  

 

@Bakerjd is correct in that it is time to allow SA guns somewhere to play.  The market is becoming robust enough to support such a division.  The vast majority of new shooters have no interest in 40 caliber guns (or Iron sites for that matter), but there are tons of 9mm guns DA/SA and SA guns that fit the bill for LO as currently constructed.  The USPSA board cannot make everyone happy in this discussion, but I think they got it right in that it affects most of the current shooters in a positive manner and makes a division that is more welcoming for future shooters.  

 

The majority of people chirping about allowing major scoring factor in LO is Limited guys that want to modify their current Limited guns.

 

 

 

Fwiw I pulled out my 2011 limited 40, put a dot on it, egw adaptor, and loaded up some minor loads.

Still not putting the revolver up, but I'd bet that I won't be alone at local matches in LO.

Kind of excited about it too.

[MikeRussell]

I also have a spare 40 sitting around that I'm going to put a mount on it and just swap out 155s for 180s on my 1050 (gives about 140pf). Though I may test some warranties and shoot some major through it as well.

[Bakerjd]

5 hours ago, pskys2 said:

Fwiw I pulled out my 2011 limited 40, put a dot on it, egw adaptor, and loaded up some minor loads.

Still not putting the revolver up, but I'd bet that I won't be alone at local matches in LO.

Kind of excited about it too.

FWIW 40 minor is stupid soft shooting. 

[Matt1911]

I’ve Been thinking of getting my Limited gun milled for an optic, so I’m hoping major PF comes to the division so I can get it done and knock the dust off of it. 

[zzt]

oops,

Edited April 23, 2023 by zzt

[BritinUSA]

I used to run one of the old Docter scopes on my Open guns, admittedly they were bullet-proofed by Beven Grams but this was many, many years ago. Reliability of the new scopes is an order of magnitude higher than it was 15+ years ago.

[zzt]

On 4/22/2023 at 1:08 AM, Bakerjd said:

For one thing the beating the red dot will take will quickly kill even the most stout dots on the market.

 

Utter nonsense.  Been doing it for years.  No dot failures.  172 PF in 40sw.  172 in 45, plus factory 40sw.  As long as you spring correctly, you won't hurt the red dot.  That goes for direct slide mounting and dovetail adapter mounting.  I have two shooting buddies who shoot 9 major Open guns with slide mounted dots.  One is directly mounted, and has been for 12 years.  The other is on a plate attached to the slide.  No dot failures.

 

On 4/22/2023 at 11:44 AM, Boomstick303 said:

Like it or not 40 is dying. 

 

Last match I shot. Lim major 15 shooters.  Opn 17.  CO 37.  PCC 4.  Every other Division had a single entry.

 

To all you no major in LO people:

 

LO should have been major and minor.  Limited shooters can handle the recoil of major and score well.  Wimpy 9mm shooters don't want anyone with any ability to have a scoring advantage over them.  Limited shooters will put a dot on their guns and run stupid soft 130PF minor loads and blow everyone away.  Minor 40 IS an advantage over 9mm minor.  And don't even run out that dumb mag capacity trope.  Limited shooters are already used to 20 in a mag.  Only cry babies and noobs need the extra 3 rounds in a mag.

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by zzt

[zzt]

 

double tap.

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by zzt

[Bakerjd]

@zzt you speak as if i havent shot limited. 40 major isnt really that hard to shoot. And if 40 minor is so so much better then 9 minor why does NOBODY shoot it in production at all? I've shot all over the east coast and seen 1 single person shoot anything in 40 minor and that was single stack. 

 

Be mad, shoot go get a cape and be super mad. Major PF is not going to be a thing in LO. 

[Boomstick303]

 

1 hour ago, zzt said:

Limited shooters will put a dot on their guns and run stupid soft 130PF minor loads and blow everyone away.

 

Not Likely. Plenty of 9mm shooters shooting LO, Limited and Open will keep up with Limited 40 guns with optic cuts.

 

1 hour ago, zzt said:

Last match I shot. Lim major 15 shooters.  Opn 17. 

 

You must be in a great area.  We are lucky to get 2-4 real Limited shooters attending any of the 10-12 matches a month in out section.  Open only has 1-2 guys that is any real heat.   LO will most likely dominate our section along with CO.  It will very from place to place.  40 as a whole is dying.  You can keep pointing to USPSA participation numbers but that does not tell the real tale of 40 caliber market share in the world.  You can keep wishing it wasn't so BUT THOSE ARE FACTS.  

 

I will also give you the same answer that kept coming up about SA guns having a minor division of their own or being added to CO.  There already is a division for your 40 caliber slide ride SA gun using Major PF.  It is called Open.  Nothing is stoping anyone from shooting their 40 gun with an optic in Open.  In fact I think you have mentioned this yourself as something you have done.  So why exactly does LO need Major PF in it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by Boomstick303

[zzt]

1 hour ago, Bakerjd said:

@zzt you speak as if i havent shot limited. 40 major isnt really that hard to shoot. And if 40 minor is so so much better then 9 minor why does NOBODY shoot it in production at all? I've shot all over the east coast and seen 1 single person shoot anything in 40 minor and that was single stack. 

 

Be mad, shoot go get a cape and be super mad. Major PF is not going to be a thing in LO. 

 

I agree major LO isn't going to be a thing.   Stupid.   I shot Limited, and loved it, d until my eyes said no way.  I shot it even before I joined USPSA.  If that were not the case, I'd still be shooting Limited.  You obviously have zero experience shooting major with a slide mounted dot, or you wouldn't have said what you did.

 

9mm shooting is as popular as it is only because of the primer shortage.  You can buy suitable factory 9mm anywhere for reasonable prices.  I can buy 9mm factory for less than it would cost me to reload at today's prices for components.  I even shoot 9 minor now for some things, because I have to reload 40sw.  I'm saving primers for 9 major.

[Boomstick303]

23 minutes ago, zzt said:

9mm shooting is as popular as it is only because of the primer shortage. 

 

That is complete BS.   No one is buying 40 guns.  No ONE.  Primers having nothing to do with the number of 40 guns built and sold.  Especially in the commercial market and big box store market.  The only people buying 40 caliber guns are USPSA Limited shooters.  That's it.  I have seen 1 new Limited shooters start shooting Limited in the last four years in our section.  Ask any 2011 builder the number of 40 guns compared to any other gun(s) they build.  You are living in the past.  You are entitled to, but its not changing the demographics of guns sold and shot.   

 

40 minutes ago, zzt said:

You obviously have zero experience shooting major with a slide mounted dot, or you wouldn't have said what you did.

 

And exactly how many different optics have you shot on a slide ride major gun?  I do not think anyone with any certainty what optics would last for how long.  It seems like most optics are consumables on 9 minor guns to an extent.  They all seem to have some sort of problem or another since there is not a consensus on one optic that is better than all of them, or everyone would buy that optic.  You make it sound like you have some secret optic that can take any abuse and never fails?  If that is the case share it so all of us can go out and buy it.  

 

 

 

 

 

[Bakerjd]

35 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

I agree major LO isn't going to be a thing.   Stupid.   I shot Limited, and loved it, d until my eyes said no way.  I shot it even before I joined USPSA.  If that were not the case, I'd still be shooting Limited.  You obviously have zero experience shooting major with a slide mounted dot, or you wouldn't have said what you did.

 

9mm shooting is as popular as it is only because of the primer shortage.  You can buy suitable factory 9mm anywhere for reasonable prices.  I can buy 9mm factory for less than it would cost me to reload at today's prices for components.  I even shoot 9 minor now for some things, because I have to reload 40sw.  I'm saving primers for 9 major.

You sure like to assume a lot of things about me. 

 

As for dots lasting on 40 major slide ride guns....... not gonna argue with you. You know more then everyone else in the game I guess. Im for sure not the only person who will tell you that a slide ride red dot isn't going to last on a 40 cal major gun. 

 

Limited optics is just the name of the division. It honestly has nothing to do with actual limited guns. A limited gun as you already stated will shoot 40 minor softer then a 9 minor gun. So they can still send their guns off to get milled or put a dovetail adapter on them. And shoot major or minor. Nothing is stopping them. You also said the mag capacity was a non issue. So most of your argument is invalid from your own words. 

 

40 cal is dead. Almost no major manufacturer makes 40cal guns that are red dot ready. And no major manufacturers 2011 comes factory 40cal. It's all 9mm.

 

This division was made for the HUGE ammount of people who have a 9mm SAO pistol with a slide ride red dot. 

 

Anyways I'm done with this conversation. 

 

[lawboy]

On 4/22/2023 at 10:30 AM, pskys2 said:

Fwiw I pulled out my 2011 limited 40, put a dot on it, egw adaptor, and loaded up some minor loads.

Still not putting the revolver up, but I'd bet that I won't be alone at local matches in LO.

Kind of excited about it too.

Here here.  I jus outfitted a second CZ75 SP01 Shadow for LO. same as my CO gun with thinner aluminum grips so I can reach the thumb safety, magwell and thumb rest.  Will run in a Guga Ribas race holster.  Kind of excited myself.   

[shred]

.40 Minor in LO will be as popular as 9x25 Dillon is in Open.   

 

Even though I think LO should have been Major/Minor.

 

 

 

[pskys2]

12 hours ago, shred said:

.40 Minor in LO will be as popular as 9x25 Dillon is in Open.   

 

Even though I think LO should have been Major/Minor.

 

 

 

Agreed except for those that have and don't want to spend.

[zzt]

12 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

That is complete BS.   No one is buying 40 guns. 

 

And yet, I can pick out as much 40sw brass from the brass buckets at the range as I want.  The people shooting it are not shooting 2011 Limited guns.  They are mostly plastic guns.  Some are shooting reloads.  Others various factory.

 

12 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

And exactly how many different optics have you shot on a slide ride major gun? 

 

Three.  One is a FF3 8 MOA on a 1911 45 via dovetail mount.  40k rounds of major (172PF) and minor target (160PF).  No issues.  Another is a C-More RTS2 v4 6 MOA directly mounted to the slide of a 1911 45.  This is my major competition gun.  No issues.  The third is a DPP 2.5 MOA on a CZ 75 Tactical Sport via dovetail adapter.  At least 15k 172PF rounds and a boatload of 144PF minor.

 

I've had five FF3s, three RTS2s, and three DDPs slide mounted on  my guns.  In the last decade I've had to send one FF3 and one DPP back for warranty repair,  All were on minor guns.  The FF3 windage screw lost tension and wouldn't hold zero.  The DPP dot refused to stay on shortly after I mounted it.  Both of these were on 22s, so it wasn't recoil that caused the problem.

 

As far as the primer shortage driving 9mm ammo sales, it is certainly true around here.  Many are shooting 9 for no other reason than they can buy unlimited quantities of 9mm factory for under 25 cents a round (as long as you are not fussy about brand).  If you are buying at current prices, you cannot reload for less than that.  I shoot 9mm factory for plate and pin matches.   I shoot it for SCSA Open and PCCO, even thought it isn't optimal.  Once the 400 rounds of 40sw I have left are gone, I won't be shooting 40 any more.   I'm down to fewer than 3k LPPs.  So 45 shooting gets rationed.  Everyone I know is in the same boat.  The only exception is one guy willing to pay 12 cents each for primers so he can shoot 45.

 

 

[shred]

.40 was dying in retail long before primers disappeared, but "dead caliber" is a poor argument.

 

Zero factory guns are chambered in .38 Supercomp but ~40% of Open Nationals shooters shot it and 83% shot handloads.  0% shot guns you can find at any corner gun store. 

 

Why does everything have to be about the lowest-common-denominator?  We have Production and CO for that

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

54 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

And yet, I can pick out as much 40sw brass from the brass buckets at the range as I want.  The people shooting it are not shooting 2011 Limited guns.  They are mostly plastic guns.  Some are shooting reloads.  Others various factory.

 

 

Certainly people still shoot some 40. My state went shall issue thanks to NY. In the last year I've been helping with the qualifications for a local company. If we have 50 students in a weekend and I see one 40 it was a good weekend for 40. Building a division around that today would be silly. I plan to shoot LO as it is, if it goes to Major I'll go to CO. I have no interest in shooting 40.

 

I had a RTS2 on a open gun for a while. I put it on the slide of a 40 and 500 rounds later the lens came out. 

[sandflea316]

17 hours ago, zzt said:

 

Utter nonsense.  Been doing it for years.  No dot failures.  172 PF in 40sw.  172 in 45, plus factory 40sw.  As long as you spring correctly, you won't hurt the red dot.  That goes for direct slide mounting and dovetail adapter mounting.  I have two shooting buddies who shoot 9 major Open guns with slide mounted dots.  One is directly mounted, and has been for 12 years.  The other is on a plate attached to the slide.  No dot failures.

 

 

Last match I shot. Lim major 15 shooters.  Opn 17.  CO 37.  PCC 4.  Every other Division had a single entry.

 

To all you no major in LO people:

 

LO should have been major and minor.  Limited shooters can handle the recoil of major and score well.  Wimpy 9mm shooters don't want anyone with any ability to have a scoring advantage over them.  Limited shooters will put a dot on their guns and run stupid soft 130PF minor loads and blow everyone away.  Minor 40 IS an advantage over 9mm minor.  And don't even run out that dumb mag capacity trope.  Limited shooters are already used to 20 in a mag.  Only cry babies and noobs need the extra 3 rounds in a mag.

 

Agree 100%

IMO don't call it Limited Optics.

SA optics is more like it.

 

[RJH]

57 minutes ago, shred said:

.40 was dying in retail long before primers disappeared, but "dead caliber" is a poor argument.

 

Zero factory guns are chambered in .38 Supercomp but ~40% of Open Nationals shooters shot it and 83% shot handloads.  0% shot guns you can find at any corner gun store. 

 

Why does everything have to be about the lowest-common-denominator?  We have Production and CO for that

 

 

 

 

But when 40 was adopted, it was a popular caliber. Back when people started shooting 38 super, it was in the beginning days and heads up and people were looking for any advantage they could get. Building a division around either of those calibers from scratch today is a bad idea if you want those divisions to flourish, anybody that's willing to look at anything objectively would realize this

 

 

 

As far as your second part about production and carry-ops being for lowest common denominator, that's fine but it also completely disregards the fact that there is not a place for the multitude of readily available factory Sao guns that are minor only. It's really dumb to not have a place for all of those guns to shoot AND be at no competitive disadvantage. I would be fine with limited optics and carry optics being thrown together. I would also be completely fine with allowing Sao guns in production, but I don't think either of those is going to happen at this point.

 

 

 

And if anybody's going to piss and moan about there being a new division they should really just piss and moan about there being any divisions and we all go back to shooting heads up. I'm fine with that too but there's a lot of people that aren't, and since the goal is to have more people shooting instead of less, divisions are going to stick around.

 

 

Anyway the membership voted, limited optics minor is what they wanted, pissing and moaning ad nauseam is just wasting interwebs space. So I think I'm pretty well done with this subject, and I'm looking forward to shooting some limited optics in a few days 

 

 

Edited to add: I say all that as a guy who really enjoys shooting limited, and I should major when I shoot it. Hell, I even shot limited major this weekend 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2023 by RJH

[Racinready300ex]

@sandflea316 Does the name even matter?

 

If were going to nit pick the name, isn't Open also a division for SA guns with optics? So that's out. Maybe Open Minor, but no comps and slide mounted optics so that doesn't really work either. Carry Optics is probably the best fit, but that's taken. 

[sandflea316]

1 minute ago, Racinready300ex said:

@sandflea316 Does the name even matter?

 

If were going to nit pick the name, isn't Open also a division for SA guns with optics? So that's out. Maybe Open Minor, but no comps and slide mounted optics so that doesn't really work either. Carry Optics is probably the best fit, but that's taken. 

In the grand scheme of thingsa probably not.  I agree, Carry optics is best fit.  Just update the rules to allow SAO, magwell and rackers.  No need for a new division.

[Boomstick303]

Minor optics is what is should be called. But that ship has sailed. 

[mreed911]

8 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

Minor optics is what is should be called. But that ship has sailed. 

 

Carry Optics is already all-minor.  I agree they should have just opened up the CO rules.