Reloads and DQ's

[Joe4d]

My match experience with revolvers is basically pins and now steel, So if you were reloading, you were screwed anyways.
Been watching videos,, and know the 2 basic techniques. Right hand load, left hand load. Read some discussions over the years seems the  right hand reload is more popular..
Watching  several different videos and without exception every vid I see has 2 (USPSA) DQ's with a strong reloads.. Muzzle breaks 180, and shooter sweeps their hand/arm thats  hitting ejector rod..
Revolver folks just been getting a by on this ? As dont recall their ever being a DQ discussion on this. 
Am gonna try both types of reloads with the 617 though see what I think

[Bill Sahlberg]

DQ applies to any gun that is not handled safely...revolvers, semi-autos, shotguns, or rifles.

 

I have shot revolvers since we 1984 and never earned a DQ. I used the old style for Police Pistol Combat (Jerry Miculek style) and now weak hand reloads as the barrel either way is never above the berm nor breaking the 180...

 

No one is ever 'given' a DQ, they earned it by breaking the safely rules...

[Fishbreath]

16 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

Read some discussions over the years seems the  right hand reload is more popular..

 

(For clarity, in this post, when I say 'strong hand reload' or 'weak hand reload', I mean the hand that's handling the ammo.)

 

The last time I checked (2020? 2021?) and went digging for match video, the USPSA top 20 was roughly evenly split between the strong and weak hand reload. It's a little easier to do the weak hand reload on a Ruger with an extended cylinder release than on a S&W, but I've seen both ways done stupid fast.

 

Neither one needs to break the 180 if executed correctly. There is some small risk of getting your hand in front of the gun with the weak hand reload, but I've done tens of thousands of them in dry fire and can count the number of times I've flagged myself on two hands, and that exclusively from pushing speed.

[GOF]

I've been shooting revolvers in IDPA, USPSA, and Steel Challenge since 2005. These are all speedloader guns. I've never had a problem with a strong hand reload. Just open the cylinder and bring the strong hand from behind the gun, instead of over the top, to smack the ejector rod.

[Joe4d]

Watched a Jerry Video,, He was using his left thumb to eject and loading with right,,, His vertical arc was alot less than I am seeing in vids from the right hand  palm strike method. 
The other vids I am seeing muzzle come back towards the for head slighle past 90 degrees to the ground,,
Like in this video,,, basically every reload breaks 180, and sweeps hand ? So is noone at matches doing this ? And would said guy get DQ'd ?
I mean its a pretty common reload.

 

[MWP]

12 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

Watched a Jerry Video,, He was using his left thumb to eject and loading with right,,, His vertical arc was alot less than I am seeing in vids from the right hand  palm strike method. 
The other vids I am seeing muzzle come back towards the for head slighle past 90 degrees to the ground,,
Like in this video,,, basically every reload breaks 180, and sweeps hand ? So is noone at matches doing this ? And would said guy get DQ'd ?
I mean its a pretty common reload.

 

No one is doing that at matches. No one who is decent anyways. 
 

Just like autoloaders, there’s way way way more incorrect information out in the social media world than correct info.
 

This is a great example of how to reload a revolver in a way that’s much slower than it needs to be, and will get you sent home early from a match with a governing body. 

[Joe4d]

would enjoy link to better video,,, just trying to learn here.. Waiting on my 617 speed loaders to show up, have some dummy/snap caps, thinking of trying to copy the Jerry M vid and use my weak thumb to eject, strong hand reload
As below,  FF to about 30 second...
Dang he is smooth... Reminds me of DR Middlebrook,, Slow is smooth, smooth is fast... Or Todd Jarret talking to me, not paying attention to gun but steady reloading a 1911, and each reload faster than the drop mag hits the ground. They donnot look fast, just smooth

 

[Miranda]

musicians have a saying, practice until you can't get it wrong.

 

the saying is a little light on what to practice...

 

that mag change is a toughie.

seems even harder with a revolver.

 

miranda

[GrumpyOne]

7 minutes ago, Miranda said:

musicians have a saying, practice until you can't get it wrong.

 

the saying is a little light on what to practice...

 

that mag change is a toughie.

seems even harder with a revolver.

 

miranda

The quote is

 

Amateurs practice until they get it right. Professional practice until they can't get it wrong.

[Bill Sahlberg]

2 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Watched a Jerry Video,, He was using his left thumb to eject and loading with right,,, His vertical arc was alot less than I am seeing in vids from the right hand  palm strike method. 
The other vids I am seeing muzzle come back towards the for head slighle past 90 degrees to the ground,,
Like in this video,,, basically every reload breaks 180, and sweeps hand ? So is noone at matches doing this ? And would said guy get DQ'd ?
I mean its a pretty common reload.

 

Not IDPA, ICORE,  nor USPSA are the revolver shooters breaking the 180 nor muzzle rising above the berm nor sweeping their hand in front of the barrel.

 

The RULES will DQ every shooter that does this and to say that this video is showing it happening ALL the time is not at any of the above matches...

 

The guy in this video would EARN a DQ with unsafe gun handling at any of these Matches. 

[testosterone]

2 hours ago, Joe4d said:

would enjoy link to better video

This is josh demo'ing his weak hand speed loader load.   He is/was easily the fastest at this(at least in competition).   Mike may be faster or as fast, but nobody did it at matches with Josh's speed and consistency. I shot a lot of matches with josh and other gm's shooting moonclip guns and the running joke was always how much was josh winning by...

 

Here is jerry and you have the advantage of seeing it in ultra high speed footage...

 

Jay slater(fishbreath here) has videos on his Insta, he has a very very fast reload.

 

If you are a lefty, if you look up matt griffins profile on this forum, you can see him do a 1.31 dry fire as a lefty....

 

And if you stalk mwp on facebook and look back far enough in his history you will find video of the unofficial but real fastest reload with an 8 shot and live ammo....

 

 

 

[Joe4d]

42 minutes ago, testosterone said:

This is josh demo'ing his weak hand speed loader load.   He is/was easily the fastest at this(at least in competition).   Mike may be faster or as fast, but nobody did it at matches with Josh's speed and consistency. I shot a lot of matches with josh and other gm's shooting moonclip guns and the running joke was always how much was josh winning by...

 

Here is jerry and you have the advantage of seeing it in ultra high speed footage...

 

Jay slater(fishbreath here) has videos on his Insta, he has a very very fast reload.

 

If you are a lefty, if you look up matt griffins profile on this forum, you can see him do a 1.31 dry fire as a lefty....

 

And if you stalk mwp on facebook and look back far enough in his history you will find video of the unofficial but real fastest reload with an 8 shot and live ammo....

 

 

 

Thanks, good left hand reload

[Vic]

I'm not understanding the "above the berm" portion of DQ status. Don't believe I've ever performed, nor have I've seen any other revolver shooters not, at some point have the muzzle almost straight up,  which sure as hell orients it well above the berm?

  What am I not understanding with this point during the reload? I've been shooting competitively since 1977, and specifically revolver since 1991, and have never had a DQ. My muzzle is up for every reload.

[Joe4d]

43 minutes ago, Bill Sahlberg said:

The guy in this video would EARN a DQ with unsafe gun handling at any of these Matches. 

Been RO and CRO at USPSA, was my thoughts as well, but googling reload videos was seeng this over and over, almost seemed like the standard.. 

 

[MWP]

1 hour ago, testosterone said:

This is josh demo'ing his weak hand speed loader load.   He is/was easily the fastest at this(at least in competition).   Mike may be faster or as fast, but nobody did it at matches with Josh's speed and consistency. I shot a lot of matches with josh and other gm's shooting moonclip guns and the running joke was always how much was josh winning by...

 

Here is jerry and you have the advantage of seeing it in ultra high speed footage...

 

Jay slater(fishbreath here) has videos on his Insta, he has a very very fast reload.

 

If you are a lefty, if you look up matt griffins profile on this forum, you can see him do a 1.31 dry fire as a lefty....

 

And if you stalk mwp on facebook and look back far enough in his history you will find video of the unofficial but real fastest reload with an 8 shot and live ammo....

 

 

 

Don’t go back too far. I’m still young enough there’s weird stuff on there…

 

One of these days I’ll post a quick one. I might have a surprise in store… 

[racerba]

4 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Like in this video,,, basically every reload breaks 180, and sweeps hand ? So is noone at matches doing this ? And would said guy get DQ'd ?
I mean its a pretty common reload.

 

To be fair, he's not showing the reloads for competition...
Yes, he would be DQed...

 

[MHicks]

39 minutes ago, Vic said:

I'm not understanding the "above the berm" portion of DQ status. Don't believe I've ever performed, nor have I've seen any other revolver shooters not, at some point have the muzzle almost straight up,  which sure as hell orients it well above the berm?

  What am I not understanding with this point during the reload? I've been shooting competitively since 1977, and specifically revolver since 1991, and have never had a DQ. My muzzle is up for every reload.

 

I haven't seen a problem with shooters pointing the muzzle above the berm during reloads. Especially moon clip shooters who use gravity for the empty moon to fall out. If the muzzle is getting pointed straight up, that's a problem.

I have heard of ranges where it's a dq for the muzzle to point above the berm but that's for revolvers or semiautos 

[NoSteel]

The muzzle over the burm issue would be a local range rule,  not a USPSA rule.  If your at a range with that rule competes are usually required to adjust to it.  
Here is a great prior discussion on the revolver 180 subject which based on your experience may help you decide which reload to select (Strong or weak hand).

 

 

[ysrracer]

I'm right handed, I handle the ammo in my left hand, just like I do with a semi auto.

 

Is that a weak hand reload?

 

I don't do the change hands shuffle. I'm afraid I'd drop my gun

[Vic]

I'm left handed, no other way to get the reload done without changing hands. As I start the pass to my right hand, I'm crossing my lefthand thumb over the hammer and engaging the cylinder release, right hand thumb moves cylinder out, and revolver by hanging  on my thumb and middle and ring finger secure it, depressing ejection rod with right hand index finger.

    I tip the revolver up, not quit 90 degrees to eject spent cases, tip down to reload, change back to left strong hand and get back to yanking the trigger.

 Essentially, like most every shooter I've seen, the barrel is at some point, at an angle that is oriented "over the berm".

  Watching the Josh Lentz video, although his barrel at reload didn't appear to be at an "over the berm " angle, when he raises his revolver back on target, he's what I call a "caster", he doesn't  raise revolver with barrel parallel to ground as Jerry does, muzzle is arked,  at an angle that clearly is over the berm,  then drops down on the target. I'm just not buying the idea there is a correlation between the 180 rule and this idea you can reload a revolver, without at some point, the muzzle will not be oriented at an angle that would be pointed over the berm.

 I've never been DQed for it, nor have I ever witnessed it at any match I've shot in, specific to revolvers, ICORE and 2 IRC matches I attended.

[Makicjf]

7 hours ago, ysrracer said:

I'm right handed, I handle the ammo in my left hand, just like I do with a semi auto.

 

Is that a weak hand reload?

 

I don't do the change hands shuffle. I'm afraid I'd drop my gun

Which sucks when it happens.  

2019 USPSA Nats on the big "T" track meet stage I left the second position at a dead run, took 4 steps started to angle around the wall and my right calf popped. As I was falling I thought I had managed to shoot myself with an empty Revo. I don't know if I actually dropped the gun or set it down as I grabbed my calf looking for blood.  I had obliterated the GE muscle. It was a miserable trip home, on crutches with a useless right leg. Three months in a cast a dropped gun and a DQ at a major.

Summer 2020  Jerry's for the ICORE south regional: I left a box hard, slipped on (maybe a peace of brass) something just as I was transferring hands and literally launched my 625 about 5 feet.  I've never seen Elliot look so shocked .  I was having a good match, too.  Again, big match, dramatic failure.

Just prior to the 2022 IRC i was pushing movement and reload speed:my left hand simply grasped slowly, I missed a moonclip toss and when I reached for a second clip, the cylinder rolled under my left thumb, the gun squirted out and ended up on the ground.  DQ.  So close to the IRC it really damaged my confidence.  I had worked really hard on movement and 1.6 partime reloads only to crash a few days before I left for Florida. I performed below my abilities for the whole match: except for the x ring stage I was governed by fear of failure and couldn't relax and just do.  Once the match was over, the fear of catastrophic failure abated,  I was relaxed for the shoot off.

Maybe I just suck more than the average guy, but the strong hand/switch reload can result in dropped guns.  I do also struggle with some hand injuries which effect my motor skills .

Thankfully, a few months of not shooting Revo and some intense daily stretches and self message have , for now, restored quite a bit of my macro dexterity. 

Not breaking the 180 up or moving left just takes awareness and practice .

They both work, imo.

Pick one and practice 

Jason

[testosterone]

13 hours ago, NoSteel said:

local range rule,  not a USPSA rule

This, and local ranges cant have local rules without a letter from drnoi(i thought?)

There are a few ranges here in a7 that have this in place(interstate behind berm, housing development behind berm, etc...)

 

I am not aware of an actual dq ever happening from a reload pointed over berm, they will dq if you send one over though of course.

[mchapman]

This is not using speedloaders but moonclips, and I'm sure many have seen this before, but here is another look at strong hand loading. 

 

[pskys2]

On 2/23/2023 at 1:33 PM, Joe4d said:

Watched a Jerry Video,, He was using his left thumb to eject and loading with right,,, His vertical arc was alot less than I am seeing in vids from the right hand  palm strike method. 
The other vids I am seeing muzzle come back towards the for head slighle past 90 degrees to the ground,,
Like in this video,,, basically every reload breaks 180, and sweeps hand ? So is noone at matches doing this ? And would said guy get DQ'd ?
I mean its a pretty common reload.

 

Yes I would dq if they break 180 or obvious sweep, you must obviously break 180 or sweep yourself.

The danger with the strong hand reload is having the revolver slip and break 180, with the weak hand reload it's sweeping.

Most strong hand reload use the thumb.

My suggestion is to pick up your revolver from a table and load a moon clip or Speed loader as you normally would.  That's the method to use to start, once you're comfortable and confident you can experiment with the other style.

Edited February 24, 2023 by pskys2

[pskys2]

On 2/23/2023 at 4:39 PM, Bill Sahlberg said:

Not IDPA, ICORE,  nor USPSA are the revolver shooters breaking the 180 nor muzzle rising above the berm nor sweeping their hand in front of the barrel.

 

The RULES will DQ every shooter that does this and to say that this video is showing it happening ALL the time is not at any of the above matches...

 

The guy in this video would EARN a DQ with unsafe gun handling at any of these Matches. 

There's no rule against the muzzle pointing above a berm, now firing a round is a dq and legal liability.  There are locale exceptions, a world shoot in the Philippines had a restriction on muzzle angle as there were houses actually built on the rim, probably several hundred feet above the range.