Limited Optics

[euxx]

2 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

The last match I shot only had 1 production shooter. Most of the time that match has 0-3 production shooters. The division is essentially dead even up here around all these ban states where it should be popular. 

How many Limited and Open shooters you've had at those matches?

Picking a handful of matches and pulling random conclusions out of that won't give you real picture of competitor's desires. E.g. the CO shooters who don't want to break an expensive optics already have Limited division. So, I still don't really see what you want to achieve by making Production division be more like Limited.

The data from low cap states will not show you if their competitors want to shoot low cap or not, but it will show you how many of those competitors have to shoot low cap. It all adds to the whole picture.

[MHicks]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Most people swear by SRO's, and they do seem pretty good. I have seen several fail, one failed on a guy in my squad last weekend. I don't know why, but it seems like CZ's break a lot of optics. I know one guy who's broken several on a shadow 2 with a lightened slide. Maybe the steel frame mixed with high slide speed kills them faster. Maybe just a lot of people run SRO's and CZ's so I just see more breaking.

 

So far only one of mine has died in a match, zeroed the first stage on a sectional. 

 

IMO, if you're going to shoot CO and travel to majors you must have a back up optic. Better is probably a back up gun, and maybe 3rd optic.

 

I've shot quite a few level 2 matches in SS but have a backup.  I'll see how it goes with CO before I shoot more then a local but will set up a 2nd gun before going to bigger matches. 

[RJH]

This production capacity debate is interesting to me as well. As a former production shooter, there are only two things that would get me back to shooting production. The first but less important would be to raise capacity, maybe to factory capacity, maybe 141s, maybe fit in a box I don't really care. But I'm not sure that would get me to shoot production again.

 

The only other thing that would get me to shoot production, and the one I would prefer, is don't raise capacity limit but make it eight rounds major 10 round minor and let me shoot my single stack gun in it. I know that's not really production anymore, but it's the idea I like best. And it stuff's two dying divisions together and maybe it comes out with one that makes it. But I figure most people would rather up capacity

 

 

[pskys2]

5 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

People who can properly visualize, stage plan and train wont have issue with "muscle memory" related reloads. I've shot plenty of low cap and never had that issue. 

 

It's vary clear based on participation of low capacity divisions that the majority of people do not want to shoot them. If we eliminated L10 or increased the capacity of production, nothing would change for those people living in low cap states. They would continue to load 10 rounds in production and they'd just shoot limited with 10 rounds instead of shooting L10 with 10 rounds. Many of them already do this. 

 

Several states around me are capacity restricted so I'm familiar with how it works. 

 

 

Was squaded with travis tomasie at an area 3 a decade ago and watched him use his last mag due to muscle memory reloads.

[motosapiens]

39 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

Was squaded with travis tomasie at an area 3 a decade ago and watched him use his last mag due to muscle memory reloads.

sounds like he made a visualization mistake. even shooting SS, it's not at all unusual around here to move without a reload, so I only reload when it's part of the plan.

[euxx]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

The only other thing that would get me to shoot production, and the one I would prefer, is don't raise capacity limit but make it eight rounds major 10 round minor and let me shoot my single stack gun in it. I know that's not really production anymore, but it's the idea I like best. And it stuff's two dying divisions together and maybe it comes out with one that makes it. But I figure most people would rather up capacity

Is there anything needed to be changed in the rules to make you shoot SS again? Because that is what you really asking for... 

Edited January 4, 2023 by euxx

[RJH]

23 minutes ago, euxx said:

Is there anything needed to be changed in the rules to make you shoot SS again? Because that is what you really asking for... 

 

Single stack is pretty perfect as is, although I wished they wouldn't have got rid of the ride hight on the holster rule. I do like that they allow you to move your mags around a little further now. Though neither one of those is a huge deal

 

I occasionally shoot single stack, but I quite often shoot my 1911 in either L10 or limited. Sometimes with eight round mags and sometimes with 10 rounders, just depending on what I took to the match and what other people are shooting. A couple of matches ago I planned on shooting single stack but when I showed up there was actually a couple people shooting L10 so I just shot L10 with eight rounders, the last match I was at I shot limited with 10 round mags in my 1911 and old school single stack rig.

 

I just see production and single stack complementing each other very well and see no actual reason to separate them. I said many times that I would like to see l10, production, single stack, and maybe even revolver all thrown together and shoot eight major, 10 minor, and just have one low cap division. Maybe if four divisions were combined there would be enough participation to justify actually having one division. 

[Southpaw]

3 hours ago, euxx said:

But really, what exactly you want to achieve by increasing Production capacity? What is wrong with existing 10 round capacity? Other than people not willing to learn to do these damn reloads...

 

What's "wrong" with it is the vast majority of would be Production shooters don't like it.  If capacity were increased, far more people would like it and choose to shoot it.  Shouldn't divisions be structured in a way that members actually like them, instead of the majority wishing the rules were different (while still having sufficient differentiation between divisions and no more divisions than is necessary)?

[Johnny_Chimpo]

2 hours ago, euxx said:

The data from low cap states will not show you if their competitors want to shoot low cap or not, but it will show you how many of those competitors have to shoot low cap. It all adds to the whole picture.

 

The data from normal capacity states shows you nobody wants to shoot production.  Virtually all over area 5 production is dead as f*#k in level 1 matches and nearly so in level 2 matches. 

[Southpaw]

2 hours ago, RJH said:

The only other thing that would get me to shoot production, and the one I would prefer, is don't raise capacity limit but make it eight rounds major 10 round minor and let me shoot my single stack gun in it. I know that's not really production anymore, but it's the idea I like best. And it stuff's two dying divisions together and maybe it comes out with one that makes it. But I figure most people would rather up capacity

 

See my suggestion 3 pages back.  I think combining 3 low participation divisions into Limited 8/10 might create 1 division with somewhat decent participation, and create a home for everyone that wants to shoot low cap.  And doing this at same time that Production capacity is increased leaves a division for the few dozen people that actually prefer Production at 10 rounds

[TaterHead]

If no one shoots production, who cares? No one shoots revolver but it has been around, dead, for a long time. Some folks like to shoot it. Who cares. Why is everyone clamoring to get rid of low usage divisions? Why does that matter?

[RJH]

6 minutes ago, Southpaw said:

 

See my suggestion 3 pages back.  I think combining 3 low participation divisions into Limited 8/10 might create 1 division with somewhat decent participation, and create a home for everyone that wants to shoot low cap.  And doing this at same time that Production capacity is increased leaves a division for the few dozen people that actually prefer Production at 10 rounds

 

I probably read it but don't remember it LOL but if it's eight major,  10 minor I would probably like it though. I think eight major/10 minor is the only thing that makes the major/minor difference actually interesting. 

[RJH]

6 minutes ago, TaterHead said:

If no one shoots production, who cares? No one shoots revolver but it has been around, dead, for a long time. Some folks like to shoot it. Who cares. Why is everyone clamoring to get rid of low usage divisions? Why does that matter?

 

 

There is some truth to this. If there's four people shooting production, three people shooting single stack, two people shooting limited 10, and one person shooting revolver, does it really water down any of the other divisions? Probably not. 

 

But, if you could combine those 10 people and actually recognize their division at a more major match, that might be nice. In reality though it's probably not a huge deal either way

[euxx]

2 hours ago, RJH said:

I occasionally shoot single stack, but I quite often shoot my 1911 in either L10 or limited. Sometimes with eight round mags and sometimes with 10 rounders, just depending on what I took to the match and what other people are shooting. A couple of matches ago I planned on shooting single stack but when I showed up there was actually a couple people shooting L10 so I just shot L10 with eight rounders, the last match I was at I shot limited with 10 round mags in my 1911 and old school single stack rig.

 

I just see production and single stack complementing each other very well and see no actual reason to separate them. I said many times that I would like to see l10, production, single stack, and maybe even revolver all thrown together and shoot eight major, 10 minor, and just have one low cap division. Maybe if four divisions were combined there would be enough participation to justify actually having one division.

This all sounds like you don't care of Production division, but for some reason want other Production shooters shoot something else...

[RJH]

19 minutes ago, euxx said:

This all sounds like you don't care of Production division, but for some reason want other Production shooters shoot something else...

 

Not really, I just want production shooters to have some people to shoot against. Same as I would like more people to shoot against when I am shooting single stack. 

 

I would much rather shoot against some production shooters than no single stack shooters, and I figure the inverse would be true for production shooters. Since both divisions are so small and they  score the same, combining them seems like a solid idea. 

 

Hopefully that is making sense, I know sometimes things are lost in text

[euxx]

30 minutes ago, RJH said:

Not really, I just want production shooters to have some people to shoot against. Same as I would like more people to shoot against when I am shooting single stack.

See, the Single Stack division is a subset of the Limited/L10/Open.

 

But Production is not - it is a different game and you want to change that game for your own reasons or benefits. If you want to shoot Production - get the gear for division and join it or else you have several other divisions to shoot with the gear you already have.

Some said no one want to shoot Production anymore. But did anyone explored why or what other divisions people are moved to or why new people aren't considering it?

[rowdyb]

People would shoot a squirt gun division if their friends were and if a large number of regular shooters plus "heat" did as well. There is a strong component of 'everyone is doing it so it's cool' vs let's do this because the gun is cool.

Edited January 5, 2023 by rowdyb

[Joe4d]

2 minutes ago, euxx said:

See, the Single Stack division is a subset of the Limited/L10/Open.

 

But Production is not - it is a different game and you want to change that game for your own reasons or benefits. If you want to shoot Production - get the gear for division and join it or else you have several other divisions to shoot with the gear you already have.

Some said no one want to shoot Production anymore. But did anyone explored why or what other divisions people are moved to or why new people aren't considering it?

That makes no sense.. SS has little to nothing in common with Limited or Open.
 While production legal guns other than full mags can and do compete and win in Limited...
People dont shoot production because they want to fill their magazines .

 

[euxx]

1 minute ago, Joe4d said:

That makes no sense.. SS has little to nothing in common with Limited or Open.

 

Any Single Stack gun and gear is compliant with Limited, L10 or Open division requirements. So as any Production gun.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

4 minutes ago, euxx said:

 

Any Single Stack gun and gear is compliant with Limited, L10 or Open division requirements. So as any Production gun.

 

You make less and less sense as you go along.

 

I used to shoot Production.  Having to reload every four targets got old.  Having more ammo in the magazines allows a bit more creativity in stage planning and encourages risk taking.

 

IPSC Production works just fine with 15 rounds. 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Johnny_Chimpo

[euxx]

50 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

You make less and less sense as you go along.

 

Which part of my statement does not make sense? It is straight USPSA rule book.

 

50 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

I used to shoot Production.  Having to reload every four targets got old.  Having more ammo in the magazines allows a bit more creativity in stage planning and encourages risk taking.

Maybe so, or maybe your MD or stage designers got out of ideas and they are making you shoot stages in four targets every time, or just designing stages for higher capacity divisions.

With that likely case, running a higher capacity division gives you more options and allowing to take risks and do other silly stuff you can't otherwise afford on such stages...
 

50 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

IPSC Production works just fine with 15 rounds.

Maybe so. Most of my decade of IPSC shooting is done with 10 round mags. Still haven't got old.
 

[SufferInSilence]

It also seems like the biggest thing splitting up ‘hearts and minds’ is the concept of a 2011 having some kind of a distinct advantage over  every other gun… 

 

Hear me out… What if they simply did away with hammer down rule for DA/SA guns with an external safety for CO and just put “LO” guns in it?  

No lame azz slide racker, thumb rest, or mag wells.  (Want all that? Great, shoot Limited, the new L10 with optics option, or Open. Take the points hit if your gun MUST be a 9mm, like always)

 

Yall know the SA pull of the CZ, T-fo, well-dun-up P320, Glock, Walther, etc, in the right hands is every bit of an equal threat.  
 

Love the DA/SA draw…? Keep it, your choice, rock on!  

Have a DA/SA with a decocker/no external safety…? Sorry, majority rules, hammer down for safety (or maybe even not, it’s the same concept as a striker gun considering most decockers also have a firing pin block these days) 

 

Then, dudes aren’t dumping their CO gear for new stuff, “arms race” is averted, and 2011 style guns stay more “practical/carry” minded.   

 

[Dr_Z]

1 hour ago, euxx said:

Maybe so, or maybe your MD or stage designers got out of ideas and they are making you shoot stages in four targets every time, or just designing stages for higher capacity divisions.

With that likely case, running a higher capacity division gives you more options and allowing to take risks and do other silly stuff you can't otherwise afford on such stages...

This, my friend, is what I believe the REAL reason production and other low cap divisions are suffering greatly reduced participation. Bad / low-effort stage designs that only consider high cap divisions. Forced standing reload, forced reloads within in 1/2 steps, 11 round target arrays (with in close distances) with steels. These kinda of stages are getting increasingly common as large capacity divisions became more popular. This, sucks the fun out of the game for low cap divisions for potential newcomers. Everthing is high-risk, with minimum or no rewards. Few new shooters would dare to take up that kinda of challenge while they have the option to do one or no reload the entire stage and finish the stage without drama. e.g., no need to separate visible target arrays thus less likely to forget targets, less reloading, less dropped mag, no shooting empty and conduct embarrassing standing reload)

 

I started with and still really like production. I am planning on going back to it once (if ever) I attain GM class in Limited. However, the division as of now is definitely not a new shooter friendly division as some would think, considering the capacity limitation as well as the suck in stage design trend. Its now a Hard-Core division. 

 

Lastly, regarding your comment about low cap participation in and out of restricted states. I think the trend in stage design actually could have made some impact on your perception. Within restricted states, people are expected to shoot low cap in all divisions, hence the stages are designed with low cap flow in mind. In other states, its not the case. Here in Michigan, its less and less likely to see well thought stage designs that offer fair challenge and non-BS options to low cap, iron sight shooters. I believe it would be similar in other non-restricted states. Based on this, your experience with low cap shooting might not apply to shooters in all states, at least not at a local match level. 

[erwos]

5 hours ago, Dr_Z said:

This, my friend, is what I believe the REAL reason production and other low cap divisions are suffering greatly reduced participation. Bad / low-effort stage designs that only consider high cap divisions.

Not wrong. The badly-executed "need to make it real hard for PCC and high cap" designs also totally screw newer lefty shooters because stage designers invariably put in hard leans for right handed PCC shooters that are nearly impossible for lefties without switching shoulders. I watch my lefty 11yro son shooting PCC struggle with that constantly and I feel terrible for him. I assume it's not much more fun for others.

Edited January 5, 2023 by erwos

[Makicjf]

11 hours ago, RJH said:

 

 

There is some truth to this. If there's four people shooting production, three people shooting single stack, two people shooting limited 10, and one person shooting revolver, does it really water down any of the other divisions? Probably not. 

 

But, if you could combine those 10 people and actually recognize their division at a more major match, that might be nice. In reality though it's probably not a huge deal either way

I'd add score revolver major regardless of power factor.  This will level the field a bit.  

Jason