Excessively Hard Shooting Challenges - MD's need to know the skill set of their customer base

[zzt]

5 hours ago, motosapiens said:

but ultimately, we're arguing very small differences here

 

Except for forward falling steel.  I see this once a month at one of the clubs I shoot at.  Their policy is ONLY forward falling steel.  A hit in the calibration zone or higher pushes the popper back against a rubber bumper.  You have to compress that bumper enough that when it springs back it has enough force to throw the steel forward past the 'balance' point.  The more you compress it, the faster the steel falls.

 

Major does that sooo much better.  The proof of the pudding is at their annual falling steel match.  You are allowed to shoot two guns.  I do, my Open gun at 172+PF and my PCC at 140PF.   On stacked arrays I can hit three in rapid succession with the Open gun.  By that time the first popper has fallen forward enough for me to engage the popper behind if I want.  With the PCC it is usually 5 poppers before the one behind the first popper becomes shootable.  This applies to full sized poppers.  Mini poppers fall forward much more readily.

Edited November 25, 2022 by zzt

[ChuckS]

3 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

Now that the Thread Topic Derailments are mostly over (Good discussions though), How do we change the Excessive Shot Difficulty behavior for these matches?

Let's please try and stay on track with CHA-LEE's OP. If you need to discuss power factor, start a new thread (if there isn't one already)

[Johnny_Chimpo]

On 11/21/2022 at 5:21 PM, GigG said:

 

For over 58% of shooters in 2022 power doesn't come into play at all because they are in a class where Major isn't available.

 

If you think 9 mm minor isn't powerful, stand in front of one.

 

I bet you won't.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

On 11/21/2022 at 8:10 PM, Joe4d said:

Wait,,, what,, did you even read your own post ? large percentage of open targets, is EXACTLY a sprint contest unless those targets are 50 yards.. 
Power ? lets see, ever read rule book on production, CO, Single stack, revolver ?

 

When was the last time you shot a USPSA match?  How about a level 2?

 

Start shooting again and then you'll have a frame of reference.

 

It's always the same "no s#!t there I was"

[Johnny_Chimpo]

On 11/24/2022 at 4:49 PM, zzt said:

 

Nonsense.  When I hit steel with my major PF Open load it falls a lot faster than when hit with a 9 minor load.  This is especially true of forward falling poppers.  Hit with a 132 PF load they may take two seconds before you can tell if they are falling.  With major you know right away.  Since you only shoot at non-hinged poppers, you may not be aware of this.

 

I shoot a lot of forward fallers since my closest club only allows that kind.  I can tell immediately whether they're going to fall or not because I know how to call my shots and I don't wait for them to move before going to the next one.

[esajz24]

Problems arise when MDs or stage designers overly rely on impractical marksmanship challenges to make things “hard.” 

 

There are many skills to test in this game. I think any stage where the designer tries to capture several of these naturally becomes a challenging (and fun stage). The difficulty comes from testing more than one element of shooting and the shooter’s ability to place shots with an appropriate level of accuracy on targets of varying difficulty.

 

For example, a stage that starts with a draw to a 20yd mini popper, followed by a hard run to a 3 target array with a no-shoot or two at 12yrds, followed by 4 open targets within 7yds to shoot on the move, finally ending with an array where you enter to a 15yd mini and a 25yd open paper (separated by an >90deg transition) sounds really fun and plenty challenging. You’ve gotta be good at lot to win that stage. 

 

I *think* this illustrates is CHA-LEE’s point. It certainly illustrates the stages I enjoy the most. There are a lot of skills to test. Honing each and then stringing them together is the main challenge of this game. Putting hardcover head box-only targets at 30yds ain’t the way. 

[Bakerjd]

3 hours ago, esajz24 said:

 

 

For example, a stage that starts with a draw to a 20yd mini popper, followed by a hard run to a 3 target array with a no-shoot or two at 12yrds, followed by 4 open targets within 7yds to shoot on the move, finally ending with an array where you enter to a 15yd mini and a 25yd open paper (separated by an >90deg transition) sounds really fun and plenty challenging. You’ve gotta be good at lot to win that stage. 

 

 

TBH this sounds boring. You leave only one way to shoot the stage. So a huge part of the fun of USPSA is left out. How to break down the stage in a way that works for you. 

 

Could have that 20yd mini be available at say 10yd and 30yd. Put the 3 target array closer to the 4 open targets so you could blend all of them with a larger transition between the two and the closer one having a no shoot between the two closer to the second array.  

[esajz24]

Throwing in options is always good, I just think it’s really hard. 

 

It’s easy to make a stage that technically has options, but it’s hard to make one where there are two (or more) comparably effective ways to shoot the stage. 
 

To my point though, the diversity in target difficulty is what tests multiple skills and the deft execution of those in sequence is what makes the stage fun. If there can be an option or two, all the better.

[motosapiens]

On 11/25/2022 at 1:50 PM, zzt said:

 

Except for forward falling steel.  I see this once a month at one of the clubs I shoot at.  Their policy is ONLY forward falling steel.  A hit in the calibration zone or higher pushes the popper back against a rubber bumper.  You have to compress that bumper enough that when it springs back it has enough force to throw the steel forward past the 'balance' point.  The more you compress it, the faster the steel falls.

 

Major does that sooo much better.  The proof of the pudding is at their annual falling steel match.  You are allowed to shoot two guns.  I do, my Open gun at 172+PF and my PCC at 140PF.   On stacked arrays I can hit three in rapid succession with the Open gun.  By that time the first popper has fallen forward enough for me to engage the popper behind if I want.  With the PCC it is usually 5 poppers before the one behind the first popper becomes shootable.  This applies to full sized poppers.  Mini poppers fall forward much more readily.

that sounds like a problem only for that particular flavor of poorly designed forward falling steel. Our forward Fallers don’t react the same way. You just hit them and the latch drops and they fall. there is no balance point.

[zzt]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

that sounds like a problem only for that particular flavor of poorly designed forward falling steel. Our forward Fallers don’t react the same way. You just hit them and the latch drops and they fall. there is no balance point.

 

Could be.  I've never seen the type you describe.  What brand are you using?

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, zzt said:

 

Could be.  I've never seen the type you describe.  What brand are you using?

mostly mgm. they are local to us. we do have some new hingeless poppers with separate base and popper that can be set to bounce and fall forward like you describe, but we have never used them that way. 

[zzt]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

we do have some new hingeless poppers with separate base and popper that can be set to bounce and fall forward like you describe, but we have never used them that way. 

 

I'm all ears.  How else can you use them?

[Bakerjd]

8 hours ago, motosapiens said:

mostly mgm. they are local to us. we do have some new hingeless poppers with separate base and popper that can be set to bounce and fall forward like you describe, but we have never used them that way. 

Are the ones with the latch the ones used at battle for the north coast? Because those amd what ever ones used at A5 2 years ago in KY were spot on. 

 

As for forward falling steel it doesn't really bother me much. One of the clubs local to me used to only allow it do I've delt with it since I first started in USPSA. I do however make sure I take a look at all the steel on stages though since I see a mix of both at a lot of matches. 

[motosapiens]

14 hours ago, zzt said:

 

I'm all ears.  How else can you use them?

we just set them as rear fallers. wish i had a picture.

 

we have a couple spots on our range where we only use forward fallers if they are big poppers, but minis seem much less susceptible to double-tapping and skipping rounds out.

[GigG]

On 11/25/2022 at 6:58 PM, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

If you think 9 mm minor isn't powerful, stand in front of one.

 

I bet you won't.

 

I didn't say that. What I said was that Major (scoring) isn't available in more than 58% of the shooters.

[Archer]

I'm bemused to note that last week's local match made me think the stage designers saw this thread and said "hold my beer".  

 

Two of five stages with 32 minimum rounds, the final one of which had about 24 barrel stacks and a pair of "hostage" head-only shots that could be taken at ~30 yards- or you could sprint across gravel and rocks to a box and engage at about 10.  (I stayed back and shot them from 30, scored AA-AC, so no dog in that fight, but it sucked for the new shooters on that day).

 

It also kind of sucked for a couple of more experienced shooters who pretty much ran out of ammo due to my squad having to re-shoot the first stage, where steel had been set up to drop back rather than the mandated forward at my club.  We had a couple guys in my squad decide to take a zero on the stage and go home rather than re-shoot.

 

None of this was a problem for those of us who shoot regularly, but a tough day for a few new shooters- you know, the types who stop by whatever store the day before to buy the match minimum round count and find out the hard way, that isn't a good idea.

 

It's a tough balance.  Keep things interesting for the experienced, be friendly to new shooters, keep round counts reasonable in continuing times of component scarcity/high cost, be grateful for the very hard work put in by the stage setters, get stacked two squads deep due to the sheer complexity of scoring and pasting in a forest of paper and barrel stacks...

 

 

[shred]

I think we often do new shooters a disservice by trying not to 'scare them', but OTOH, penalty-fests are no fun either.

 

All that said, I lost a popper calibration at the CO Nationals in Utah with a nice pretty center hit on a big popper.  It was windy that day and when Ray rolled up, he agreed the wind likely held it up as it fell for his shot.  Major does better in the wind.

[Dirty_J]

37 minutes ago, shred said:

I think we often do new shooters a disservice by trying not to 'scare them', but OTOH, penalty-fests are no fun either.

 

All that said, I lost a popper calibration at the CO Nationals in Utah with a nice pretty center hit on a big popper.  It was windy that day and when Ray rolled up, he agreed the wind likely held it up as it fell for his shot.  Major does better in the wind.

Large poppers don’t belong at majors for this very reason. Most calibration issues are always surrounds large poppers. Either neglect to the prop or weather issues. 
 

Roll’m at locals for the newbs… just use minis at majors. 

[Sarge]

15 minutes ago, Dirty_J said:

Large poppers don’t belong at majors for this very reason. Most calibration issues are always surrounds large poppers. Either neglect to the prop or weather issues. 
 

Roll’m at locals for the newbs… just use minis at majors. 

Yep, I only order mini poppers for our club now. Only keeping enough full size for classifiers.

[BritinUSA]

1 hour ago, Dirty_J said:

Large poppers don’t belong at majors for this very reason. Most calibration issues are always surrounds large poppers. Either neglect to the prop or weather issues.

I've often wondered if IPSC has similar issues with their large poppers.

 

At the '99 GA they lowered the PF for Major from 175 to 170/160 and they also introduced Production which increased the number of people shooting Minor.

 

At that time there were two popper designs, IPSC and US. The IPSC popper does not have the top part, and sometime in the early 2000's (if I recall) they removed the US poppers from the rule-book.

 

IPSC poppers weigh less, and by removing that weight from the top of the popper (furthest from the hinge) it would make the poppers less prone to variations in setting angle.

[Dirty_J]

They’re just bad all around. 
 

- more likely to be set heavy 

- more likely to be affected by wind 

- hammers the ground in poor/muddy conditions and the base tips/tilts 

 

 

[BritinUSA]

23 minutes ago, Dirty_J said:

- hammers the ground in poor/muddy conditions and the base tips/tilts 

This last one is the biggest issue for me. For every degree that the angle changes, the lowest activation point will move upwards (for a forward-falling popper).

Some RO's are good at maintaining these during a match and some are not, and even the smallest change can affect how it functions.

 

Form must follow function; When the PF's were lowered and more people started shooting Minor, the design should have changed to reflect that. It did in IPSC but not in the US, hence my question about whether IPSC sees the same issues with their large poppers.

[echotango]

Yup, a large popper f'd me at a major. Direct center hit(172pf) and took off. You could no longer see the popper once you left the starting position. Called my shot and left. It was standing at the end of the stage.  That mike cost me 3rd place O/A(and prob some other stuff , lost by 0.5 points). 

Edited December 13, 2022 by echotango

[motosapiens]

4 hours ago, echotango said:

Yup, a large popper f'd me at a major. Direct center hit(172pf) and took off. You could no longer see the popper once you left the starting position. Called my shot and left. It was standing at the end of the stage.  That mike cost me 3rd place O/A(and prob some other stuff , lost by 0.5 points). 

so it went down for calibration? that's fairly unusual when shooting major. (i.e. I have never seen it happen except with an improperly adjusted forward faller.

[echotango]

38 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

so it went down for calibration? that's fairly unusual when shooting major. (i.e. I have never seen it happen except with an improperly adjusted forward faller.

It was believed to be a wind gust at that exact time per the squad.  There were some small gust that morning.  It was about 30yrds out. All I know is I was not happy. 

Edited December 13, 2022 by echotango