Excessively Hard Shooting Challenges - MD's need to know the skill set of their customer base

[BritinUSA]

Stage Hit Factors around 5,6,7 were common back when I first started shooting. These generally required a balance of speed and accuracy.
 

I suspect they are much higher now, especially at L1 matches where run-and-gun, high-round-count stages are typical.

 

It should be relatively simple to pull some data from the Practiscore database to determine the HHF from the last few years of Nationals and/or Area matches to see where it is now. 

[Bakerjd]

I've shot 8+ majors a year for the last 4 years. A5 for the last 5 years, 2022 CO nats, 2021 SS nats, 2018 L10 nats and the last FLOP Shannon Smith put on.  I haven't seen a match yet that I walked away as a C/B class shooter saying it was too hard. Sure there have been some stages where I was like how in the heck am I gonna do this. But to me that's fun. Double half IPSC targets on swingers 30 yards away was spicy but fun. This year at A5 there was a stage I know for a fact very high level GM shooters were complaining it was too hard. To me it wasn't. One side was upper half of USPSA target with no shoots in between and other side was 4 full uspsa targets with different parts as hard cover. Had to shoot one side of stage strong hand, then move to other box and shoot either strong or week hand. The hard cover targets were pretty far out but not impossible. I think they had this stage at race gun nats as a fixed time stage. It was super fun and you could shoot fast (as I did) and risk a few Mike's or slow down on SH/WH and make sure you got the hits.

 

TLDR: I haven't seen the so called too hard match yet. I have seen plenty of the hoser matches both locals and majors and if it becomes common I stop going. 

[CalTeacher]

When the price of primers went sky high I cut round counts down at our club matches.  Limiting yourself to low-mid 20 round stages actually makes you get more creative.  Using the same size bay with fewer targets reduces hit factors and forces more movement between targets.  We haven’t had a 32 round stage for a few years and I think they’re better than ever before.

 

I’m with the guy above about how hosefest are just boring.  I really don’t want to see 10+ hit factor stages too often.

[GigG]

15 hours ago, CalTeacher said:

I’m not sure I follow here.  You’re saying that power is measured by stage design?  That seems odd.

 

 

No power is ONLY measured by Major/Minor.  We've taken that out of 3 and arguably 5 of the Divisions.

[CalTeacher]

21 minutes ago, GigG said:

 

No power is ONLY measured by Major/Minor.  We've taken that out of 3 and arguably 5 of the Divisions.

Yes, we all understand that power is defined as major or minor. This has nothing to do with poor stage design.

 

$10 says your shoot minor.

[GigG]

9 minutes ago, CalTeacher said:

Yes, we all understand that power is defined as major or minor. This has nothing to do with poor stage design.

 

$10 says your shoot minor.

 

I do now. I didn't always. Hell, I shot Major back when it was MAJOR.

 

But stage design SHOULD test all three things that are supposed to be tested in USPSA competition.

 

P.S.  I wasn't the person that brought up power in this thread.

[CalTeacher]

30 minutes ago, GigG said:

 

I do now. I didn't always. Hell, I shot Major back when it was MAJOR.

 

But stage design SHOULD test all three things that are supposed to be tested in USPSA competition.

 

P.S.  I wasn't the person that brought up power in this thread.

Care to explain how you average, run of the mill stage doesn’t test power?

[GigG]

33 minutes ago, CalTeacher said:

Care to explain how you average, run of the mill stage doesn’t test power?

 

Sure, 3 of the 5 Divisions everyone is shooting for minor points NO MATTER what their PF is as long as it makes the minimum floor.

[CalTeacher]

22 minutes ago, GigG said:

 

Sure, 3 of the 5 Divisions everyone is shooting for minor points NO MATTER what their PF is as long as it makes the minimum floor.

So, shooters who elect to shoot divisions where minor is the only power factor means that stages aren’t testing power?

 

This, once again, has nothing to do with poor stage design, and has everything to do with the appeal of new optic heavy divisions.

 

Want to use power to your advantage? Choose a different division. The stage, unless it is all steel, will test the effectiveness of power by offering a point differential between major or minor.

I’ve shot every division except for revolver, and I understand the trade offs relating to power factor very well.  The three elements of the sport have never been absent on any stage I’ve shot, save for an all steel stage.  It was up to me, the shooter, to figure out the proper balance between the three to achieve the highest hit factor per stage.

 

[Joe4d]

1 hour ago, CalTeacher said:

So, shooters who elect to shoot divisions where minor is the only power factor means that stages aren’t testing power?

 

This, once again, has nothing to do with poor stage design, and has everything to do with the appeal of new optic heavy divisions.

 

Want to use power to your advantage? Choose a different division. The stage, unless it is all steel, will test the effectiveness of power by offering a point differential between major or minor.

I’ve shot every division except for revolver, and I understand the trade offs relating to power factor very well.  The three elements of the sport have never been absent on any stage I’ve shot, save for an all steel stage.  It was up to me, the shooter, to figure out the proper balance between the three to achieve the highest hit factor per stage.

 

You dont seem to understand the triangle the sport was founded on..
Shooters who elect to shoot divisions where minor is the only power factor ARENOT being tested for power as there is no scoring advantage.
The fact minor only and minor with more ammo divisions exist means the game has moved away from testing power,, and yes that is a stage feature,,, if everyone is just running up and hitting easy AA,, you have taken power and accuracy out of the scoring . The only thing you are scoring is running speed.
That is definitely a stage design issue.. 
I could design par time stages with high pars that take speed out of the scoring.  Thats a stage feature too. 
But as some have said. It was founded on a balance ,, That balance is gone.. So no I dont agree with the op... Your mid level shooters SHOULD be getting misses, your GM's should need to slow down, Folks should be having to decide on D hits or slowing down for an A based on power factor..

[CalTeacher]

17 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

You dont seem to understand the triangle the sport was founded on..
Shooters who elect to shoot divisions where minor is the only power factor ARENOT being tested for power as there is no scoring advantage.
The fact minor only and minor with more ammo divisions exist means the game has moved away from testing power,, and yes that is a stage feature,,, if everyone is just running up and hitting easy AA,, you have taken power and accuracy out of the scoring . The only thing you are scoring is running speed.
That is definitely a stage design issue.. 
I could design par time stages with high pars that take speed out of the scoring.  Thats a stage feature too. 
But as some have said. It was founded on a balance ,, That balance is gone.. So no I dont agree with the op... Your mid level shooters SHOULD be getting misses, your GM's should need to slow down, Folks should be having to decide on D hits or slowing down for an A based on power factor..

I understand the triangle very well.  You don’t seem to understand that you can never test all three elements equally.  It’s up to the shooter to determine the proper balance to achieve the highest hit factors. The fact that paper targets are used with point differentials for major/minor, in and of itself, is an example of a test of power for some people, but at the expense of capacity, and thus, speed.  Since there are options to shoot minor means people have self selected speed and accuracy (good luck with that balance if you’re trying to win).  That’s a matter of competitors choosing not to be tested on power.  If people CHOOSE minor, this is not a stage design issue. This is very simple to understand.

 

I can guarantee that mid-top level shooters are not just running up on targets and blasting an easy two alphas on every target.  If that’s what you think is happening and any halfway decent uspsa match then you’re delusional…or you shoot with a bunch of non-competitors.  You strike me as a person who has never been in danger of winning and has never had to make those calculations as part of your stage planning.

 

Mid level shooters ARE missing targets and GMs DO have to balance speed vs. points.  The OP is making the very obvious point that no target should be a near impossibility for the average-below average shooter. You can build a stage with a moderate amount of movement required and open targets between 10-20 yards and it will become difficult in a heartbeat once the top competitors break it down.

[Dirty_J]

10 minutes ago, CalTeacher said:

You strike me as a person who has never been in danger of winning and has never had to make those calculations as part of your stage planning.

I legit LOL’d at this. Thank you for the comic relief. 

[CalTeacher]

10 minutes ago, Dirty_J said:

I legit LOL’d at this. Thank you for the comic relief. 

I do what I can.

[echotango]

.

Edited November 22, 2022 by echotango

[Schutzenmeister]

For those who think power is not measured on steel, remember this:

 

A Major power load will take steel down more reliably than a minor power load, to include the ability to knock poppers down with a lower hit - especially on properly set and cailbrated poppers.

[CalTeacher]

1 hour ago, Schutzenmeister said:

For those who think power is not measured on steel, remember this:

 

A Major power load will take steel down more reliably than a minor power load, to include the ability to knock poppers down with a lower hit - especially on properly set and cailbrated poppers.

Since calibration ammo must fall between 115-125pf, this is pretty much a non issue. Really, the only thing major does for you is make up for sloppy shooting in some really rare cases. Lucky misses may be slightly more likely to drop poppers.

 

Major or minor, when that steel falls it’s 5 points. 

[Racinready300ex]

33 minutes ago, CalTeacher said:

Since calibration ammo must fall between 115-125pf, this is pretty much a non issue. Really, the only thing major does for you is make up for sloppy shooting in some really rare cases. Lucky misses may be slightly more likely to drop poppers.

 

Major or minor, when that steel falls it’s 5 points. 

 

I center punched a popper once with major and it didn't fall. I wouldn't 100% count on every steel you encounter being perfectly calibrated. 

 

[Schutzenmeister]

47 minutes ago, CalTeacher said:

Since calibration ammo must fall between 115-125pf, this is pretty much a non issue. Really, the only thing major does for you is make up for sloppy shooting in some really rare cases. Lucky misses may be slightly more likely to drop poppers.

 

Major or minor, when that steel falls it’s 5 points. 

 

A lucky miss is still a miss and won't take the popper down.  However, a Major load should generally take down a popper with a lower hit than a minor load should.  I'd call it Physics 101, but 30 years experience tells me that's true in the real world as well.

 

13 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I center punched a popper once with major and it didn't fall. I wouldn't 100% count on every steel you encounter being perfectly calibrated. 

 

 

Sounds like it's time to challenge the calibration!  There are rules to deal with that, if you're brave enough to let it stand and ask for a calibration.

[CalTeacher]

5 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

A lucky miss is still a miss and won't take the popper down.  However, a Major load should generally take down a popper with a lower hit than a minor load should.  I'd call it Physics 101, but 30 years experience tells me that's true in the real world as well.

No, a lucky miss is with major hitting low and still getting the popper to drop.  Hitting too low on poppers is equally an accuracy issue. Knocking down poppers with minor, assuming poppers are calibrated correctly, is rarely a matter of power, but accuracy.

 

I get your point that more power is added peace of mind on poppers, but 135pf minor ammo will take down steel just like major.  Physics 101 also tells me that power comes at the expense of increased recoil. For limited, single stack and revo, I’d venture to guess that increased capacity is well worth the power trade off on an all steel stage.

 

I shot an all steel stage at the Berrys Red Rock Rumble in Utah and guys shooting PCC/carry optics had zero issues knocking down steel.

[motosapiens]

4 minutes ago, CalTeacher said:

 Knocking down poppers with minor, assuming poppers are calibrated correctly, is rarely a matter of power, but accuracy.

have we already forgotten the national championship JJ lost last year due to not having powerful enough ammo?

 

poppers get out of calibration, and wind comes up, and random acts of god happen. Major is far more forgiving of all those things.

 

Quote

I get your point that more power is added peace of mind on poppers, but 135pf minor ammo will take down steel just like major.  

this is obviously false. 135pf minor will almost always take down steel, but it will be measurably slower, which can make a difference on activator sequences. You're also measurably less likely to get away with a low hit or an edge hit. Perhaps instead of 'just like major' we could agree on 'nearly as reliably as major, as long as your accuracy is better'.

Edited November 23, 2022 by motosapiens

[CalTeacher]

8 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

have we already forgotten the national championship JJ lost last year due to not having powerful enough ammo?

 

poppers get out of calibration, and wind comes up, and random acts of god happen. Major is far more forgiving of all those things.

 

this is obviously false. 135pf minor will almost always take down steel, but it will be measurably slower, which can make a difference on activator sequences. You're also measurably less likely to get away with a low hit or an edge hit. Perhaps instead of 'just like major' we could agree on 'nearly as reliably as major, as long as your accuracy is better'.

“Assuming poppers are calibrated.” There’s a reason I said this.

There were also reports that JJs ammo was perhaps not quite minor at times.

 

I’ve hit big poppers with my open gun (174pf) at windy local matches that never went down.  
 

I watched an edge hit fail to drop a mini popper with an open gun this weekend in Havasu.

 

I’ve never seen an activator sequence that fell so slow with minor that major was a clear advantage.  Could the steel fall measurably slower? Sure.  Enough to have the impact you’re describing?  Never seen it.  I remember the 8 round stage at 2019 nats where there were two poppers, each activated a swinger with hard cover, and best 6 on paper at about 15-20 yards.  I shot PCC and had no problems getting my 6 hits in two passes.  Literally never saw an open shooter who had an advantage.  In fact, activating sooner could be as much of a disadvantage as it may not give you time to take out static targets between the steel and activator.

 

We can agree that 135pf ammo is “nearly as reliable on steel as major.” On all steel stages, minor with increased capacity has a distinct advantage over major.  

[zzt]

This thread has drifted, but I'll comment on major PF for steel.  ANYONE who does not believe major PF IS a benefit on falling steel, especially, forward falling steel has either not shot major, or is not very observant.

 

Geez, even with minor at the same PF, 147s are way better than 115s on steel.  It is simple physics.  Same thing with softer lead vs. harder lead.

 

[CalTeacher]

1 hour ago, zzt said:

This thread has drifted, but I'll comment on major PF for steel.  ANYONE who does not believe major PF IS a benefit on falling steel, especially, forward falling steel has either not shot major, or is not very observant.

 

Geez, even with minor at the same PF, 147s are way better than 115s on steel.  It is simple physics.  Same thing with softer lead vs. harder lead.

 

I’ve shot nearly every weight of bullet between 115-230 at steel, major and minor. Calibrated steel falls to all.

 

It’s a rare scenario where major presents an advantage, especially an advantage large enough to overcome the capacity differential in limited/single stack.  Weird things can happen with steel as literally every person on this page has identified, but assuming steel is calibrated pf really doesn’t matter.

[Racinready300ex]

That's the key right "calibrated steel". So if your the first shooter of the day great.  Every other shooter is just assuming it's still calibrated until one time it doesn't fall.  Somewhere along the way it went from calibrated to not. The higher your pf the less that calibration drift is going to matter.  

 

I would imagine everyone has seen a piece of steel in a match that every knows is heavy so you plan to double tap it no matter what. Our of calibration steel is just part of the game.  

[Stony Lane]

We all know and accept the traditional different scoring between minor (5-3-1) and major (5-4-2).  However, with the recent dramatic growth of Carry Optics and PCC, should there also be a scoring difference between iron sights vs. red dot sights?   What would a good difference be?

5-3-0 red dot minor?  Or even 5-2-0?  It seems this might equal out some of the different stages as to what is “too hard” or “too easy”.  Just a thought...