Excessively Hard Shooting Challenges - MD's need to know the skill set of their customer base

[Modoc]

1 minute ago, BritinUSA said:

I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone claim that the World Shoot was a hoser-fest. At a World Shoot half the stages are small/short courses and a third are medium stages.

@BritinUSA, it is a Different Action Shooting Sport that went that way. I actually shoot USPSA, NRA Silhouette and Muzzleloader Rendezvous for fun and relaxation after MDing two matches a month of the other sport.

 

I guess that I was trying to reemphasize Chalet’s point about keeping things challenging, but not turning off the new shooter. Just because XX match does it this way, doesn’t make it a fit for our club. 

 

 

[zzt]

12 hours ago, motosapiens said:

everyone likes stages with options.

 

what did your local stage designers say when you mentioned this to them?

 

I haven't mentioned it yet.  They are being coached, but only after the stage is designed.  I'll wait to see what happens. Matches at that club are over until April.

Edited November 19, 2022 by zzt

[Furrly]

Soudns like area 2, boy was it tuff for open sights.

[HI5-O]

1 hour ago, Furrly said:

Soudns like area 2, boy was it tuff for open sights.

I was there and glad I had a red dot. I liked the challenges all the stages provided, even the swinging steel plates and double target swinger with a no shoot. These stages initially looked intimidating when viewed from the spectator area, but once I got to where I would be shooting at these moving targets it wasn’t as intimidating as I first thought. The last handful of years shooting this match was like shooting a large club match and getting a little boring. This year I thoroughly enjoyed all the stages and saw my squad shoot each stage using multiple options (except for the desert run stages, just had to shoot on the run fast). Hope stages at this match will continue to provide a shooting challenge like they did this year. If you design stages where the challenge is who can shoot and move faster (everyone shooting the same plan) then it becomes more of a physical challenge. As a senior shooter I appreciate the multiple options on shooting each stage and if I can hit swinging targets better than some other shooters then I have the advantage. 

[Nathanb]

Area 8 was another that was ridiculously hard judging by the scores and videos.  I did not shoot but it looked like a match that one could call excessive 

[Fishbreath]

2 hours ago, Nathanb said:

Area 8 was another that was ridiculously hard judging by the scores and videos.

 

Not on the whole. There were a few targets that went over the line, I think (mostly the fast over-the-top swingers on the balance beam, possibly the partial double swingers on stage 1), but nothing else was really out of bounds.

 

There were some 25-30y mini-poppers, but I wouldn't call those unfair.

[mikeAZ]

Well ,here we go....  the stage designers layout their stage's and they have the shooting areas clearly marked (foot faults) that they expect you (the shooter) to engage said targets from within these  marked shooting areas.... SO, we run outside the markers to gain a bit of advantage  and run back into the actual shooting area and engage  the other  targets from a shortened distance... Obviously, an advantage BUT not what was intended?, or what? Are we supposed to "out think " the designer to save a step or two and possible lose the match by not doing this ? ("monkey see, monkey do"). .... IF, that's the case, Just let me shoot from where ever I see an advantage and stop putting up those "boundaries.. Yes, I realize we are supposed to "solve" the the stages, but are we?..

[ima45dv8]

Good stage design is all about giving options.

[obsessiveshooter]

9 hours ago, mikeAZ said:

Well ,here we go....  the stage designers layout their stage's and they have the shooting areas clearly marked (foot faults) that they expect you (the shooter) to engage said targets from within these  marked shooting areas.... SO, we run outside the markers to gain a bit of advantage  and run back into the actual shooting area and engage  the other  targets from a shortened distance... Obviously, an advantage BUT not what was intended?, or what? Are we supposed to "out think " the designer to save a step or two and possible lose the match by not doing this ? ("monkey see, monkey do"). .... IF, that's the case, Just let me shoot from where ever I see an advantage and stop putting up those "boundaries.. Yes, I realize we are supposed to "solve" the the stages, but are we?..

Forget about trying to divine the stage designer's intentions, they really aren't important.  All you need to know are what is written about the stage and what is in the rules.  I've seen it a few times at a local, where the squad figures out a legal, 'creative', advantageous stage plan but there is one guy who knowingly shoots it the slower way like a martyr, to show he's not a gamer. While competing in a shooting game.

[Climbhard]

On 11/15/2022 at 11:42 AM, RJH said:

Agree with the op.

 

But I do wonder, is the prevalence of dots that we have now one of the driving factors for making the stages more difficult?

I aboslutely believe it is.  Especially adding PCC to matches.  A difficult PCC shot is NOT PRACTICAL with iron sight.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Climbhard

[Racinready300ex]

24 minutes ago, Climbhard said:

I aboslutely believe it is.  Especially adding PCC to matches.  A difficult PCC shot is NOT PRACTICAL with iron sight.

 

I think most PCC shooters don't want difficult PCC shots. Really they should know going in you're getting pistol shots. The challenge in PCC is the movement really. 

 

One target that can challenge PCC shooters is the 3 yard upper A only with a NS under it. Make sure they got that height over bore dialed. 

[CalTeacher]

I’ve seen a number of comments here and even heard some from other competitors that some stages they come across are too easy.  My response to this is usually “are you producing stage wins?”  The answer is almost universally “no.”

 In general, there’s really no such thing as an easy stage.  One that appears easy has built in challenges that escape the first glance. All open targets?  Now you have to shoot them on the move or really force fast transitions.  Start going too fast, and you’ll drop points.  Shooters will make even the most straightforward stages as hard as they can for themselves because to be competitive on them they must push the envelope of a particular shooting skill.

 

Some stage designers prefer to show off their fondness of recreational sadism. Some match directors foster this approach.  Many shooters go elsewhere to shoot matches.

[Joe4d]

28 minutes ago, CalTeacher said:

I’ve seen a number of comments here and even heard some from other competitors that some stages they come across are too easy.  My response to this is usually “are you producing stage wins?”  The answer is almost universally “no.”

 In general, there’s really no such thing as an easy stage.  One that appears easy has built in challenges that escape the first glance. All open targets?  Now you have to shoot them on the move or really force fast transitions.  Start going too fast, and you’ll drop points.  Shooters will make even the most straightforward stages as hard as they can for themselves because to be competitive on them they must push the envelope of a particular shooting skill.

 

Some stage designers prefer to show off their fondness of recreational sadism. Some match directors foster this approach.  Many shooters go elsewhere to shoot matches.

Thats probably because the stages arnt a balance of speed power and accuracy. and are simply a sprint contest.  Any one remember that ? Speed, power, accuracy ? Things used to be balanced. power has been long gone, accuracy has been dying for awhile

 

 

Edited November 21, 2022 by Joe4d

[CalTeacher]

13 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

Thats probably because the stages arnt a balance of speed power and accuracy. and are simply a sprint contest.  Any one remember that ? Speed, power, accuracy ? Things used to be balanced. power has been long gone, accuracy has been dying for awhile

 

 

The stages I see that people describe as too easy are never a sprinting contest.  They’re usually very straightforward stages with a large percentage of open targets.  
 

How has power been long gone? How has accuracy been dying?

[GigG]

1 minute ago, CalTeacher said:

How has power been long gone?

 

For over 58% of shooters in 2022 power doesn't come into play at all because they are in a class where Major isn't available.

[CalTeacher]

26 minutes ago, GigG said:

 

For over 58% of shooters in 2022 power doesn't come into play at all because they are in a class where Major isn't available.

Slightly over half of shooters choosing to shoot divisions that only offer minor in 2022 doesn’t support the assertion that power has been long gone. It also doesn’t have much (if anything) to do with the issue we’re talking about, which is poor stage design.

Edited November 21, 2022 by CalTeacher

[Boomstick303]

9 minutes ago, CalTeacher said:

Slightly over half of shooters choosing to shoot divisions that only offer minor in 2022 doesn’t support the assertion that power has been long gone.

 

While I do not think that Major PF is on its way out completely. I have spoken to many Limited and Open shooters that would jump to CO or a new division shooting minor if 2011s were allowed. Many have also expressed if CO was around when they started they would have never shot Open and/or Limited to begin with.  It was the dot and/or the 2011 platform that led them to shoot Open and/or Limited, not Major PF.  

 

Limited and Open numbers are dwindling slowly.  Yes some cannibolized by CO, but it seem to me that more new people show up to shoot CO more than any other division and I think minor PF with a Dot is one of the major reasons for this. 

[GigG]

28 minutes ago, CalTeacher said:

Slightly over half of shooters choosing to shoot divisions that only offer minor in 2022 doesn’t support the assertion that power has been long gone. It also doesn’t have much (if anything) to do with the issue we’re talking about, which is poor stage design.

 

Of course it does.  How else do you think "power" is measured in the sport?

[CalTeacher]

13 minutes ago, GigG said:

 

Of course it does.  How else do you think "power" is measured in the sport?

I’m not sure I follow here.  You’re saying that power is measured by stage design?  That seems odd.

 

 

[CalTeacher]

19 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

While I do not think that Major PF is on its way out completely. I have spoken to many Limited and Open shooters that would jump to CO or a new division shooting minor if 2011s were allowed. Many have also expressed if CO was around when they started they would have never shot Open and/or Limited to begin with.  It was the dot and/or the 2011 platform that led them to shoot Open and/or Limited, not Major PF.  

 

Limited and Open numbers are dwindling slowly.  Yes some cannibolized by CO, but it seem to me that more new people show up to shoot CO more than any other division and I think minor PF with a Dot is one of the major reasons for this. 

Part of the attraction to CO is also the cost difference compared to open.  CO is significantly cheaper to get into.

 

The trend towards dots has really caused many stage designers to do stupid things in the name of “difficulty.”

[Boomstick303]

2 minutes ago, CalTeacher said:

CO is significantly cheaper to get into.

 

Yea.  It is expensive to load Major.  Not only the equipment, it has to do with the ammo as well.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Boomstick303

[zzt]

Loading major for Limited is no more expensive than loading 9mm minor.  For Open major, the difference is 10.8gr of powder vs. 4gr.

 

I don't think PF has anything to do with stage design.  I think the dwindling number of Prod shooters does.  CO rules the roost now.  You shoot it like Open and stage plan like Limited.   Around me, Open is increasing.  So most of the shooters are shooting CO or Open.  That may be why there is an increase in hoser stages.

 

That being said, I shoot with a couple of former Open shooters who switched.  It is tempting.  Sell your used Open gun and buy two top shelf CO guns with the proceeds.  Then shoot factory.  No fuss, no bother.  Sometimes I'm tempted myself.

[echotango]

13 hours ago, zzt said:

That being said, I shoot with a couple of former Open shooters who switched.  It is tempting.  Sell your used Open gun and buy two top shelf CO guns with the proceeds.  Then shoot factory.  No fuss, no bother.  Sometimes I'm tempted myself.

That's what my wife and I did. Sold 3 7k guns and bought 3 <2k guns.  Only thing I miss is the trigger of my open guns(and major scoring ). 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2022 by echotango

[Joe4d]

2 hours ago, CalTeacher said:

The stages I see that people describe as too easy are never a sprinting contest.  They’re usually very straightforward stages with a large percentage of open targets.  
 

How has power been long gone? How has accuracy been dying?

Wait,,, what,, did you even read your own post ? large percentage of open targets, is EXACTLY a sprint contest unless those targets are 50 yards.. 
Power ? lets see, ever read rule book on production, CO, Single stack, revolver ?

[CalTeacher]

10 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

Wait,,, what,, did you even read your own post ? large percentage of open targets, is EXACTLY a sprint contest unless those targets are 50 yards.. 
Power ? lets see, ever read rule book on production, CO, Single stack, revolver ?

Open targets and sprinting are two separate things unless you’re one of those guys who just likes to redefine words. If by sprinting you mean “shooting fast” then yes you have to shoot open targets fast.  Welcome to USPSA if that’s news to you.

 

If you think that all stages with open targets closer than 50 yards are “sprinting” then you either shoot poor quality matches, or not many at all. 
 

What point are you trying to make about power factors? Yes I’ve read the rule book.  I’ve been a match director for the better part of a decade. What does reading the rule book about the divisions you cited have anything to do with the topic?