Excessively Hard Shooting Challenges - MD's need to know the skill set of their customer base

[Joe4d]

On 11/25/2022 at 2:50 PM, zzt said:

 

Except for forward falling steel.  I see this once a month at one of the clubs I shoot at.  Their policy is ONLY forward falling steel.  A hit in the calibration zone or higher pushes the popper back against a rubber bumper.  You have to compress that bumper enough that when it springs back it has enough force to throw the steel forward past the 'balance' point.  The more you compress it, the faster the steel falls.

 

Major does that sooo much better.  The proof of the pudding is at their annual falling steel match.  You are allowed to shoot two guns.  I do, my Open gun at 172+PF and my PCC at 140PF.   On stacked arrays I can hit three in rapid succession with the Open gun.  By that time the first popper has fallen forward enough for me to engage the popper behind if I want.  With the PCC it is usually 5 poppers before the one behind the first popper becomes shootable.  This applies to full sized poppers.  Mini poppers fall forward much more readily.

that just seems crazy.. WHole point of a forward falling only rule is to keep people from hitting steel leaning backwards and sending a round over the berm.. Seems to me a lean back and bounce gadget defeats the entire purpose.

[BritinUSA]

Agreed; a falling forward popper should never travel back past the vertical. It needs to move back just enough to release the catch.

[shred]

12 hours ago, Joe4d said:

that just seems crazy.. WHole point of a forward falling only rule is to keep people from hitting steel leaning backwards and sending a round over the berm.. Seems to me a lean back and bounce gadget defeats the entire purpose.

Takes a lot more lean to deflect significant chunks of bullet out at high speed than any of the bounce-back forward-fallers I've ever seen.  Action Target says it takes 20+ degrees of impact angle (zero being perpendicular) before fragmentation turns into deflection.

 

Plus driving them down doesn't work which is the usual source of rounds skipping off falling poppers.

 

There are better designs though.

[zzt]

12 hours ago, Joe4d said:

that just seems crazy.. WHole point of a forward falling only rule is to keep people from hitting steel leaning backwards and sending a round over the berm.. Seems to me a lean back and bounce gadget defeats the entire purpose.

 

There are several designs of falling forward poppers.  The design I referred to has the popper standing almost vertical, resting against the rubber bumper.  It is only canted back a degree or so, just enough to keep it from falling.  When a bullet strikes the popper it compresses the bumper.  The 'backward' movement is imperceptible.  There is zero chance of a bullet going over the berm.

 

12 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

Agreed; a falling forward popper should never travel back past the vertical. It needs to move back just enough to release the catch.

 

I prefer this type, but not everyone has them.

[motosapiens]

12 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

Agreed; a falling forward popper should never travel back past the vertical. It needs to move back just enough to release the catch.

the problem is those catches are the most frequent cause (that I have seen) of failures and popper-f**king. Set-up crew and RO's have to pay attention to make sure they are adjusted properly and continue to function properly. I've worked 2 area matches that used some brand new forward fallers, and they all had problems until someone who gave a sh!t took the time to fix them.

 

It seems to me that the whole issue of driving them down only really exists for the big poppers anyways. Minis go down fast enough that it shouldn't be an issue. We still use some forward-falling minis, but only to mess with shooters and change the visual effect by mixing them in with rear-fallers.

[BritinUSA]

The larger poppers definitely need more care and attention. Each time they fall and are reset the ground gets compressed around them. It does not take much of a change in angle to affect the function.

 

Every fraction of a degree of the popper that it leans forward will push the lowest activation point higher.

[deerslayer]

We use forward falling only and recently got new ones.  The old ones were held at the bottom by a hook from the rear.  The new ones are held up by a rod from the front and are a LOT more reliable than our old ones. 
 

I always thought one solution would be to eliminate large poppers but with our new ones, I no longer think that is necessary.  

[BritinUSA]

Every popper is affected by the surface it sits upon. The heavier the popper the more the ground around it will be compressed at each activation, this does affect the presentation angle, which in turn affects the lowest activation point.

[MikeBurgess]

1 hour ago, zzt said:

 

There are several designs of falling forward poppers.  The design I referred to has the popper standing almost vertical, resting against the rubber bumper.  It is only canted back a degree or so, just enough to keep it from falling.  When a bullet strikes the popper it compresses the bumper.  The 'backward' movement is imperceptible.  There is zero chance of a bullet going over the berm.

 

 

 

I watched a competitor at a nationals get F$%^ed by a similar popper design (spring not bumper) he shot the popper it started to fall forward slowly he shot it again and that reset it, he lost the challenge when it went down for the RM.

 

 

[RJH]

2 best thing for poppers is the freestanding ones that just flop over when you shoot them and don't have a hinge and going to quarter inch AR 500 steel instead of using 3/8 mild. Do those two things and popper issues are pretty much no longer a thing. 

 

So when you need new poppers, get quarter inch ar500

[MHicks]

The forward falling poppers that use the bolt head on the rear that holds the poppers before dropping and releasing the popper. Some people will push all the way down on the back with their foot pushing the bolt up too high on the poppers. We instruct people to raise the bolt head just enough to hold the popper at the very bottom.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

I watched a competitor at a nationals get F$%^ed by a similar popper design (spring not bumper) he shot the popper it started to fall forward slowly he shot it again and that reset it, he lost the challenge when it went down for the RM.

 

 

You mean f*#ked himself. He shot it again and reset it

Edited December 14, 2022 by Sarge

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, MHicks said:

The forward falling poppers that use the bolt head on the rear that holds the poppers before dropping and releasing the popper. Some people will push all the way down on the back with their foot pushing the bolt up too high on the poppers. We instruct people to raise the bolt head just enough to hold the popper at the very bottom.

the ones that don't suck have an adjustment so you *can't* raise the catch too far. No matter how many instructions you give, 2 out of 10 times it will get reset wrong if it's possible to do so.

[MHicks]

26 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

the ones that don't suck have an adjustment so you *can't* raise the catch too far. No matter how many instructions you give, 2 out of 10 times it will get reset wrong if it's possible to do so.

 

I'm not sure if you can adjust these like that or if it would be possible to mount something that would limit how high you can raise the catch. It seems like it could be done.

[BritinUSA]

42 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

the ones that don't suck have an adjustment so you *can't* raise the catch too far. No matter how many instructions you give, 2 out of 10 times it will get reset wrong if it's possible to do so.

This is why RO's should be the ones to reset poppers/activating targets at Major matches. Then it's done the same way for everyone.

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, BritinUSA said:

This is why RO's should be the ones to reset poppers/activating targets at Major matches. Then it's done the same way for everyone.

I do prefer to have my crew reset moving targets. For poppers, I'd just like to use poppers that don't suck, and that *can't* be incorrectly set.

[rowdyb]

There is a fundamental difference in the approach that is a skilled shooter taking an "easy" challenge and making it harder due to their ability to do everything with more confidence and at a great rate of speed than taking a lesser skilled shooter and having them try to raise their ability to complete a "hard" shooting challenge.

 

I lean towards making 95% of the shots doable by anyone at the match without luck being part of it.

[rowdyb]

Also there is a slight conflict of interest when one of the people teaching RM and RO classes is also selling you their own poppers.

[Sarge]

5 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

Also there is a slight conflict of interest when one of the people teaching RM and RO classes is also selling you their own poppers.

I bought ten of his mini poppers and plan to by many more fore next year. They are "almost" impossible to set wrong. Just need centered with bolt head in the groove.

[rowdyb]

1 minute ago, Sarge said:

I bought ten of his mini poppers and plan to by many more fore next year. They are "almost" impossible to set wrong. Just need centered with bolt head in the groove.

I didn't say they were bad or inferior in any way. Just the relationship doesn't seem right to me. Club I shot at in another state would only use his stuff exclusively.

 

[Thomas H]

On 12/14/2022 at 5:59 PM, rowdyb said:

Also there is a slight conflict of interest when one of the people teaching RM and RO classes is also selling you their own poppers.

 

I'm unsure how this is a conflict of interest, given that there is no requirement to buy poppers at any class, the vast majority of people taking RO classes aren't buying poppers at any point in time, and there are a number of different vendors for steel targets.

 

Basically, I'm unsure how teaching an RM/CRO/RO class has anything to do with someone having a shooting business, unless there is some worry about that teacher not passing students who don't buy his poppers...?....which is ridiculous given both the format of the classes, the way the classes are scored, and how what is being sold isn't something that is a part of the class. 

 

Seriously, I don't understand how this could be framed as a conflict of interest.

[GigG]

3 hours ago, Thomas H said:

Seriously, I don't understand how this could be framed as a conflict of interest.

 

Picture a bunch of baby ROs being told "This is the best popper." by an ROI. It really doesn't take that much imagination.

 

Just for the record, I have no reason to think this has ever happened in real life. 

[Thomas H]

19 hours ago, GigG said:

 

Picture a bunch of baby ROs being told "This is the best popper." by an ROI. It really doesn't take that much imagination.

 

Just for the record, I have no reason to think this has ever happened in real life. 

 

Why would that happen?  There isn't a discussion of "the best popper" in an RO class.  Literally, that isn't a part of the class.

 

Is a discussion of good poppers to use something that shooters do?  Sure.  Does it make any difference to the class if the instructors says "Yeah, my poppers are really good" when it has nothing to do with the class, nor does it change absolutely anything about how the class is run, graded, or the students are certified?  Not in the slightest.

 

Again, the vast majority of the people in the class aren't the ones buying poppers, "the best popper" isn't a topic of the class, and the way the class is graded isn't up for interpretation where the instructor could tell people to "buy poppers, and you'll pass easier" or anything like that.  Buying poppers wouldn't GET the student anything in the class, and the instructor can't do anything to anyone who doesn't buy poppers---particularly since the class has nothing to do with that.

 

Literally, the instructor could start class by declaring "I make the best poppers in the world! You should buy them!" and it wouldn't make any difference to the class itself. 

 

Again---conflict of interest doesn't make sense.  You only have a conflict if the person is in a position where doing (or not doing) what they say can make a difference to the outcome.  This isn't one of those.

 

[GigG]

2 hours ago, Thomas H said:

Why would that happen?  There isn't a discussion of "the best popper" in an RO class.  Literally, that isn't a part of the class.

 

 

Again I don't know or have any reason to think this has happened.  But...

 

There are several opportunities during RO, CRO and more important MD and RM instructions and training for an instructor to push a certain product.

 

It is no different than any training environment.  

[Racinready300ex]

Seems like a missed opportunity to not recommend known quality products to these people. Sure they may not be in charge of buying them for their club, but they're more than likely the most active people at that club and one would think they know who does buy that stuff.

 

We have official match ammo (that doesn't need to make PF) why don't we have a list of official match poppers for level 2+ matches?