Question on a reshoot

[RJH]

We shoot an occasional match that is not technically USPSA but is mostly shot to USPSA rules, with the exception of divisions. That said let's pretend this was a straight up USPSA match, and a question I have I think we've discussed before here on Enos, but I can't remember where we ended up. So here goes:

 

Shooter comes to the line, makes ready, beep goes off, shooter draws and aims at the first Target, but his gun doesn't work. So what's the call, reshoot or a bajillion no shoots and misses? I could see it going both ways as after the beep you own what happens; however, without a shot being fired and the timer stopping on shots fired, you can't get a correct time as there were no shots were fired. Since this was more of a fun shoot and a guy didn't get a round off we let him reshoot, but my questions are what should happen at an L2, and if the shooter doesn't get to reshoot it what rule would you quote?

 

[ChuckS]

5.7.6

[motosapiens]

scored as shot (i.e. zero), unless you are jerry miculek.

Edited May 30, 2022 by motosapiens

[RJH]

I was pretty sure that was going to be scored as shot but I could not remember the specific rule, thanks

 

[Sarge]

15 minutes ago, RJH said:

I was pretty sure that was going to be scored as shot but I could not remember the specific rule, thanks

 

Yeah, after the beep shooter is SOL

[driver8M3]

Also 9.10.3.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

2 hours ago, RJH said:

 but my questions are what should happen at an L2,

 

You don't get a re-shoot at a L1 either.  All these "fun match" or "club match" exceptions do is water down the integrity of the sport and just move it closer to IDPA.

[terrydoc]

We had a similar issue at an IPSC ruled match a week or so ago here in Melbourne Australia. A guy had a dropped gun whilst patching ( all sorted out correctly) about 5 min later his turn on the line LAMR, beep, draws the gun and nothing. Racks the slide a couple of times nothing, looks at the RO (a newb) who says after putting his hand on the guys arm (  ) are you finished. Had the RO not interfered I'm sure he would have been given a reshoot anyway but that's unfortunately what happens at smaller club matches trying to be bigger matches. I did take it up with the CRO but wouldn't have mattered due to the interference but hopefully he did have a chat the the RO.  

[RJH]

7 hours ago, driver8M3 said:

Also 9.10.3.

 

Thanks, that clarifies even better. 

[varminter22]

14 hours ago, motosapiens said:

scored as shot (i.e. zero), unless you are jerry miculek.

Agreed.  

 

I certainly admire Miculek but he should NOT have been allowed a reshoot.  

[Bagellord]

20 hours ago, varminter22 said:

Agreed.  

 

I certainly admire Miculek but he should NOT have been allowed a reshoot.  

 

Wasn't that an icore match, and not USPSA? I don't know if their rules (or whatever discipline it was, if different from USPSA) allow for it or not. Assuming we are thinking of the same event.

 

If the rules are the same, or it was USPSA, then yeah... the RM shouldn't have done that.

[varminter22]

Yep, 'twas ICORE's International Revolver Championship.

[waktasz]

On 5/30/2022 at 2:10 AM, terrydoc said:

We had a similar issue at an IPSC ruled match a week or so ago here in Melbourne Australia. A guy had a dropped gun whilst patching ( all sorted out correctly) about 5 min later his turn on the line LAMR, beep, draws the gun and nothing. Racks the slide a couple of times nothing, looks at the RO (a newb) who says after putting his hand on the guys arm (  ) are you finished. Had the RO not interfered I'm sure he would have been given a reshoot anyway but that's unfortunately what happens at smaller club matches trying to be bigger matches. I did take it up with the CRO but wouldn't have mattered due to the interference but hopefully he did have a chat the the RO.  

 

If I'm the RM this guy doesn't get a reshoot either. The RO touching him doesn't affect the stage run if his gun is broken. 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

On 5/30/2022 at 2:10 AM, terrydoc said:

A guy had a dropped gun whilst patching ( all sorted out correctly) about 5 min later his turn on the line LAMR, beep, draws the gun and nothing. Racks the slide a couple of times nothing, looks at the RO (a newb) who says after putting his hand on the guys arm (  ) are you finished. Had the RO not interfered.............

 

How is that minor contact with a shooter who isn't moving, or shooting, or reloading a functioning pistol, or even no longer attempting to fix a broken pistol, interference?

 

 

[mchapman]

8 hours ago, Bagellord said:

 

Wasn't that an icore match, and not USPSA? I don't know if their rules (or whatever discipline it was, if different from USPSA) allow for it or not. Assuming we are thinking of the same event.

 

If the rules are the same, or it was USPSA, then yeah... the RM shouldn't have done that.

It was an IRC for Icore, and at the time they had no rule about that happening, but they  have since added a rule to allow it.

 

[Nolan]

5 hours ago, waktasz said:

 

If I'm the RM this guy doesn't get a reshoot either. The RO touching him doesn't affect the stage run if his gun is broken. 

 

5 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

How is that minor contact with a shooter who isn't moving, or shooting, or reloading a functioning pistol, or even no longer attempting to fix a broken pistol, interference?

 

 

 

If the RO puts his hand on my arm, I'm going to consider that a signal to stop.  What would you consider it?

 

Nolan

[Sarge]

7 hours ago, waktasz said:

 

If I'm the RM this guy doesn't get a reshoot either. The RO touching him doesn't affect the stage run if his gun is broken. 

But it’s still technically not allowed. Authorized range commands only. An RO touching me is going to mean stop to me just like others have said.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, Nolan said:

 

 

If the RO puts his hand on my arm, I'm going to consider that a signal to stop.  What would you consider it?

 

Nolan

 

Possibly.  If you're over two minutes and still can't fix the gun, you're getting stopped.

[StefVanHauwe]

In IPSC a shooter has a maximum of 2 minutes to sort out any type of gun/ammo issues in a safe manner after the beep. After 2 min. the RO will stop him/her and instruct a unload, show clear, hammer down ... in my experience most shooters will not take 2 minutes and call the RO to state that he/she will stop the stage, leading to a normal scoring routine, which oftentimes leads to a zero stage.

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, StefVanHauwe said:

In IPSC a shooter has a maximum of 2 minutes to sort out any type of gun/ammo issues in a safe manner after the beep. After 2 min. the RO will stop him/her and instruct a unload, show clear, hammer down ... in my experience most shooters will not take 2 minutes and call the RO to state that he/she will stop the stage, leading to a normal scoring routine, which oftentimes leads to a zero stage.

the rule is the same in USPSA. The potential bone of contention comes when an RO stops a shooter, (or the shooter believes he has been stopped) before that 2 minutes is up. Some shooters think that entitles them to an automatic reshoot, but the NROI appears to have a slightly different opinion, which I was fortunate enough to learn through personal experience, as follows:

 

Presumptive double-charge, loud noise, magazine blown out of gun, gun locked up, RO says stop. More than 2 minutes later, I finally am able to eject the spent case. The way it was explained to me by one of the most senior RMI's is that the situation is analogous to a squib, where the RO suspected a safety situation. If I had been able to clear the gun right away, I would have been entitled to a reshoot, but since it took more than 2 minutes anyway, I get to suck it and zero the stage even tho the RO stopped me.

 

In the case above, touching a shooter's arm and asking if they are done is not imho inteference with a situation where a gun appears to be broken. OTOH, if you touch a shooter's arm and ask if they're done while they've got the gun up and are deciding whether to make up that last shot on a swinger or something, yes, that would be interference. If you actually say "stop" and  stop the shooter, and it turns out they can actually get their gun running and you didn't give them enough time, then that would be a reshoot for interference as well.

 

Obviously there is some gray area here, and since the consequences of a stage-ending malfunction are pretty severe (and thus more likely to lead to arbitration), the best practice is to not touch the shooter or say anything, but simply start keeping track of the time and see what happens for the next two minutes. We actually had one of these situations at lo-cap nationals 2 weeks ago where the shooter was fighting with his gun but after 10-15 seconds asked to be stopped because his side stop had fallen out and was lying in the dirt (doh). 

[motosapiens]

21 hours ago, Sarge said:

But it’s still technically not allowed. Authorized range commands only. An RO touching me is going to mean stop to me just like others have said.

can you cite the rule that says authorized range commands only?  asking for a friend.

 

The rules don't say that any contact of any kind in any situation constitutes inteference. That is a judgement call on the part of the RO and the RM.

Edited June 1, 2022 by motosapiens

[Sarge]

48 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

can you cite the rule that says authorized range commands only?  asking for a friend.

 

The rules don't say that any contact of any kind in any situation constitutes inteference. That is a judgement call on the part of the RO and the RM.

Tell your “friend” that RO’s have “authorized range commands only” ingrained in their heads from day one of RO class all the way through RM. 

  Interference doesn’t even require contact. If I’m working to clear a gun and you start talking I bet I could get a reshoot. This is why gamers work on a hopelessly broken gun for the full 2 minutes. They are waiting for the RO to screw up so they can get a reshoot.

[ddc]

27 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Tell your “friend” that RO’s have “authorized range commands only” ingrained in their heads from day one of RO class all the way through RM. 

  Interference doesn’t even require contact. If I’m working to clear a gun and you start talking I bet I could get a reshoot. This is why gamers work on a hopelessly broken gun for the full 2 minutes. They are waiting for the RO to screw up so they can get a reshoot.

 

So how does “authorized range commands only” play with 8.6.2.1?

 

8.6.2.1 When approved by the Range Officer, competitors at Level I matches may, without penalty, receive whatever coaching or assistance they request. Range Officials may safety coach competitors as needed, unless a safety violation occurs.

[Sarge]

10 minutes ago, ddc said:

 

So how does “authorized range commands only” play with 8.6.2.1?

 

8.6.2.1 When approved by the Range Officer, competitors at Level I matches may, without penalty, receive whatever coaching or assistance they request. Range Officials may safety coach competitors as needed, unless a safety violation occurs.

Because the rules say those are authorized? But if you are clearing a jamb and the RO says come on man lets move along, that's interference

[RJH]

I think next time I see a guy with a broke gun before he makes a shot, I'm just going to grab him by the arm and kind of jerk him around and then tell him he got some ro interference and let him reshoot. At least at a level one, I wouldn't do it a level two. I know that makes me a bad ro, but I don't really care anymore LOL. I would be a good enough ro to explain to him that that s*** probably wouldn't happen at a level 2 though.

 

And thanks again for the rules that apply to this, I actually will pass them along. I didn't have my phone with me at the match or I would have spent 30 minutes figuring  it out then

Edited June 2, 2022 by RJH