Steel Challenge - Jan 15, 2022 BOD Minutes - Zack Jones Presentation

[egd5]

8 hours ago, Hoops said:

There is an interesting evolving contradiction between USPSA (sport) and SCSA.  Beginning in 2019 and continuing into 2022, based on feedback from USPSA shooters, USPSA HQ has added classifiers that includes movement.  The reasoning is the older "stand and shoot" classifiers do not represent the "practical shooting" (movement) that is the basis for the sport.  USPSA HQ has published several articles on this.

 

Perhaps USPSA HQ will apply the same reasoning to Outer Limits by removing movement to be consistent with the basis of the sport which is stand and shoot as fast as you can.   Speed and Accuracy is the hallmark (and the attraction) of SCSA and is not a practical shooting (movement) sport.

 

USPSA HQ essentially copied the USPSA Classification percentages over to SCSA, including needing only 4 classifiers (stages) to be classified.  But I think we would all agree, there is very little comparison in this area between the two sports.

 

The attraction to USPSA matches is the ever changing stage designs and not the match classifier stage (IMO).  SCSA is 100% classifiers.  Perhaps adding 2 new stages to SCSA would increase the attraction to SCSA and give more options to Match Directors for their weekly stage selections?  Increasing the Peak Time basis with two creative new stages may be a better solution than trying to figure out how equitably reduce Peak Times for the same 8 stages year after year?

 

 

 

 

Exactly. It would be SOO simple just to eliminate the movement from OL.

Adding new stages-ok with me but not a priority.

[old558]

On 4/20/2022 at 10:43 AM, Hoops said:

Thank you !

 

I hear the same thing from many people.  A few years ago it was common to have 60 shooters at matches and registration fill up in a few hours.  Now many matches struggle to average 35 to 40 including 2 guns.

 

I hope more people will join this conversation.  And I hope Zack continues to follow this as well.

 

 

I think this may be due more to ammo shortages or prices.

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by old558

[old558]

6 hours ago, Hoops said:

Thank you !

 

I hear the same thing from many people.  A few years ago it was common to have 60 shooters at matches and registration fill up in a few hours.  Now many matches struggle to average 35 to 40 including 2 guns.

 

I hope more people will join this conversation.  And I hope Zack continues to follow this as well.

 

 

I think this may be due more to ammo shortages or prices.

I am a B shooter with a 70.70 average if I give myself 4 seconds in OL witch would be master class I would still be a B shooter.Currently 69.11% in OL. How much would it really change the overall times to get rid of it Versus lower times to 3 sec for the penalty.

[outerlimits]

30 years ago, the steel challenge changed outer limits to one box.  it was boring as hell.  they changed it back the next year.  matter of fact, back then the plates were at 20, 25 & 40 yards.

 

 

[zzt]

7 hours ago, Hoops said:

Now many matches struggle to average 35 to 40 including 2 guns.

 

Not near me.  I just looked back at the guns for the last five months.  Mar, Feb, Jan, Dec and Nov.  57, 62, 40, 57 and 60.  The club allows 60 registrations.  There were a lot of no shows in Jan, because it was 22 degrees, damp and overcast at the start.  It was miserable shooting, and didn't get much better until stages 5 and 6.

 

I'll note that signups for both clubs are not like the USPSA matches where if you aren't registered in the first 90 seconds you are wait listed.  You can register the next day and find a slot as long as you aren't fussy about who you shoot with.

[varminter22]

On 4/6/2022 at 2:20 PM, egd5 said:

 Cory, While what you say is true to a large extent, the two concepts are not mutually exclusive. We can work on those things while also keeping the shooters we have now happy too.

There are several ideas discussed in this thread but I still think the best thing is just to eliminate the movement in OL. If we got some disabled people to shoot because of it that would be growing the sport.

Eliminating the movement doesn't add any work to you (and me) who help set up matches.

Absolutely agree.  

 

Ditch the movement.  

 

As has been said before, having movement in ONE lousy stage out eight really makes no sense.  SCSA is virtually a stand-and-shoot sport.  

 

If one desires stages with movement, there are plenty of venues for that.  

 

Either ditch the movement in OL, or add movement to a lot more stages.  

[varminter22]

On 4/9/2022 at 8:41 AM, egd5 said:

All of this discussion of OL is not about changing the outcomes of the top, or even probably middle, class shooters. They will win regardless. It is about opening the sport up to more people and leveling the field for physically impaired (even slightly by age or bad knees).

Well said.  

 

Shooters that desire stages with movement have plenty of places to play.  USPSA and ICORE come readily to mind.

 

[Nolan]

OKAY, as Moto and Darqsoul have said, eliminating movement MIGHT pick up literally a handful of new or returning competitors.  I'm 68, most of the matches I go to, the gripping isn't about movement on Outer Limits, it's about the price of ammo, the price of gas, the other kind of gas, my gun isn't running, etc... I seriously cannot remember the last time I heard someone at a match bitching about moving on Outer Limits, missing the targets, yes, gun choked, yes, if ONLY I didn't have to move, NOPE!

 

There is a small echo chamber of people on this forum that gripe about the movement.

 

Nolan

[motosapiens]

14 hours ago, Nolan said:

OKAY, as Moto and Darqsoul have said, eliminating movement MIGHT pick up literally a handful of new or returning competitors. 

note that I don't care at all about picking up new competitors. in fact, I think eliminating the movement would be more likely to annoy people than anything else, but it would also be fairer to disabled competitors in one of the only action shooting sports that isn't movement-centric.

 

But I don't really care either way. with or without the movement, steel challenge is not my priority and I only shoot it intermittently when there are no funner sports to shoot.

[bigdawgbeav]

I'm not sure how many here are going to WSSC next week, but there is a Member's meeting on Saturday and I would imagine these are some great things to bring up.  I plan on being there myself.

[motosapiens]

7 minutes ago, bigdawgbeav said:

I'm not sure how many here are going to WSSC next week, but there is a Member's meeting on Saturday and I would imagine these are some great things to bring up.  I plan on being there myself.

we're shooting the match, but skipping the meeting because I go to enough meetings and I honestly don't care that much. Whatever they do, I'll shoot steel from time to time, lol. I don't think it needs any particular changes, but I don't care if some things change.

Edited April 21, 2022 by motosapiens

[Thomas H]

I personally like that there is movement on one stage in SC.  When I look at the stages, I see them designed to each test certain types of shooting skills.

 

Smoke & Hope:  Draw to large close target, wide transitions with large close targets, ending on a target that you need to change gears for at least slightly.  As opposed to...

 

Pendulum:  Draw to a small distant target, transitions to differing heights at distance, including smaller targets, ending with a closer plate.

 

Showdown:  Small transitions, distant to close targets, main skill is a change in perspective (and sometime shooting order for some people) required by changing boxes. 

 

Etc....

 

Each stage has its own specific set of skills (or subsets of skills) that it tests.  Wide transitions, narrow transitions, draws to easy targets, draws to harder targets, changing distances, changes in visual cues needed and so on...

 

OL tests one thing that none of the others does, which is the ability to stabilize for an accurate first shot after movement.  It isn't much movement, and you don't have to move far--but you can't simply take one step and shift weight.  It is about the simplest test OF that particular skill that is possible.

 

I rather like that skill being a part of the skillset needed to succeed.  As has been pointed out, we already tried eliminating the movement once--and it wasn't fun.  (The stage suddenly didn't test anything that wasn't already being tested on other stages.)

 

Matter of fact, this is one of the things that I think will be an issue with coming up with other stages---making ones that aren't simply the same skill tests in slightly different configurations.  The stages as they currently are, give a solid test of pretty much all of the transition/draw/distance/size variations possible with three plate sizes.  Adding more might be somewhat interesting, but...it will be hard for anything new to not be really close to something we already have in terms of a skill test.

 

I don't mind outlaw stages being run, and clubs can already DO that if they want more variations.  I guess I'm not seeing any need for the official (classifier) SC stages to be expanded, unless someone can come up with a skill test variation that we don't already do.

 

I get that people want to eliminate the movement in OL so that movement-challenged people won't have to take the penalty.  The argument has merit, I agree.  I just don't think it is needed or necessary for the sport, and I don't happen to think the merit sufficient to make the change and lose that skill test.  Opinions vary, and that's all right.  (I do think that the penalty should be 3 seconds per string, not four, but that's a different argument.)

[EarlKeese]

No movement, additional stages, shorter distance...

Why not just find a Rimfire Challenge match? 

 It's unfortunate that Outer Limits is hard for older people. I was always under the impression that physical tasks become more difficult as we age. 

[AR_James]

7 hours ago, Thomas H said:

I personally like that there is movement on one stage in SC.  When I look at the stages, I see them designed to each test certain types of shooting skills....

 

Totally agree.  

 

If you dislike the movement in Outer Limits, maybe check out Rimfire Challenge or Metal Madness.  

 

 

[varminter22]

21 hours ago, Thomas H said:

...

I rather like that skill being a part of the skillset needed to succeed.  ...

...

Interesting.  That begs the question:  If it is a skill that is needed to succeed [in Steel Challenge], then why is there ONLY ONE stage that requires it?  

[Thomas H]

2 hours ago, varminter22 said:

Interesting.  That begs the question:  If it is a skill that is needed to succeed [in Steel Challenge], then why is there ONLY ONE stage that requires it?  

 

Probably because we only have a small number of stages, and each of the other ones already test other skills?  If you really think about it, most of the stages have a fairly unique set of shooting skills that they test.  (And they are pretty comprehensive, if you think about it---this is why I think it would be hard to come up with more stages that aren't merely knock-offs of the stages that already exist.)  Most of those skills really only get tested once.    (For example, drawing to a huge close target with a huge target transition right after only happens on Smoke & Hope.  On Accelerator, we have a nice huge close target to start with if you want, but the next target is a much, much smaller one.  Or you have to start with the close-but-small target in the first place.).

 

Basically:  SC tests a certain number of skills.  One of those is stability for an accurate shot after movement (not merely weight shifting).  You have to do it successfully 3 times for a good score.  Similarly, you have to rip 4 FAST shots on close huge targets then shift gears slightly to a farther smaller target on another stage.  You have to do THAT successfully 4 times for a good score.  Just as there isn't another stage with movement, you ALSO don't have another stage with that type of repeated transition.

 

(For people saying "Round about has large targets and they aren't that far away" or "Showdown also has really fast transitions" my response is "if you are shooting Roundabout, Smoke & Hope, and Showdown all in the same fashion, you are losing time somewhere, because the easy of target hits is completely different, and the body mechanics required for the differing widths of transitions is completely different.)

 

Succeeding on Smoke & Hope and succeeding on Showdown may look similar because they have similar TIMES, but you need different skills to attain that. 

 

Personally, I think it would be cool to add one more stage with movement---one where the movement requires a weight shift instead of a full step (done by simply putting two boxes next to each other, and requiring movement to the other box during the after engaging the first two targets or something), because that ALSO is an interesting skill that we don't see anywhere else in in SC. That would be an interesting addition to SC, and allow for a new stage that wouldn't resemble any other.

 

(I can already hear the booing and the complaints, though.    And I get that "we've never had that before, so you can't say it is part of Steel Challenge" and so on.)

 

There have been some comments about adjusting stages so they can be more-easily shot indoors, and while I see the reasoning, I think that stages like 5 To Go would be completely different if you didn't have that sudden wide transition at the end to the stop plate coming from the hardest shot on the stage (at least, the way most people shoot it).  Moving the stop plate to get rid of that will really completely change the stage, IMO.

 

So as an "instead of" stage, I wouldn't be a fan.  As a "another choice of stage" sure, I suppose.  (With its own particular par time.  I'd still prefer that the standard 8 be the official ones for major matches, though---because a stage "adjusted" like that simply isn't going to be the test that the original 5 To Go is.)

 

[egd5]

That sounds to me like you're over analyzing it. IDK, but I just don't think that the designers of those stages said, "let's see, what can we design a stage to test this time". I think it was more like "hey, let's try this".

But they all, except one, are stand and shoot 5 plates as fast as you can. Why just that one?

And even if they do test those different skills, why do we need to test movement. As has been said, there are plenty of other places to test that.

IMO.

[varminter22]

I agree with egd5 (above). 

They all, except one, are stand and shoot 5 plates as fast as you can. Why just that one?

And even if they do test those different skills, why do we need to test movement. As has been said, there are plenty of other places to test that.

Either scrap the movement, or make another three (or so) stages of the eight to include movement (which would be dumb too.) 

 

 

[Hoops]

Peak Time comment:

 

I have previously advocated for not changing Peak Times in the popular RFPO, RFRO and PCCO divisions.  At the recent 2022 WSS match, the following are the percentages of those that shot below the Peak Times:

 

RFPO - 7.7% below Peak Time / 92.3% were above.

RFRO - 8% below Peak Time / 92% were above.

PCCO - 8.2% below Peak Time / 91.8% were above.

 

RFPO - 7.7% below Peak Time / 92.3% above.

RFRO - 8% below Peak Time / 92% above.

PCCO - 8.2% below Peak Time / 91.8% above.

 

These figures are consistent with 2020 and 2021 WSS matches.  

 

 

 

 

[Thomas H]

On 4/22/2022 at 3:55 PM, egd5 said:

That sounds to me like you're over analyzing it. IDK, but I just don't think that the designers of those stages said, "let's see, what can we design a stage to test this time". I think it was more like "hey, let's try this".

But they all, except one, are stand and shoot 5 plates as fast as you can. Why just that one?

And even if they do test those different skills, why do we need to test movement. As has been said, there are plenty of other places to test that.

IMO.

Over-analyzing?  Everyone else was literally talking about what skills were and were not in Steel Challenge! 

 

Whether the designers thought that, this is what we ended up with...and other stages have gone away over time.

 

Sure, they are all stand and shoot 5 plates.  But...I don't believe anyone thinks that it makes all the stages the same.  (Otherwise not nearly as many people would hate Pendulum so much, and love Smoke & Hope.).

 

Why do we need to test movement?  Why not?  It has been in for years---why do people think it ISN'T a part of Steel Challenge, I wonder?

 

As for "there are plenty of other places to test that" --- that's literally true for everything else we shoot.  It doesn't really tell us anything about Steel Challenge.

 

From a separate post:

"Either scrap the movement, or make another three (or so) stages of the eight to include movement (which would be dumb too.)"

 

I don't know if we need three more---like I said, one more with a different type of movement would be a good addition, I think.  And there's no reason it would be "dumb" any more than adding another stand-and-shoot stage would be dumb.  (Actually, adding yet another stand-and-shoot stage that doesn't test any skill that we don't already have would be harder to justify, really.)

 

 

 

[varminter22]

On 4/20/2022 at 3:47 PM, outerlimits said:

30 years ago, the steel challenge changed outer limits to one box.  it was boring as hell.  they changed it back the next year.  matter of fact, back then the plates were at 20, 25 & 40 yards.

 

 

I'm confused.  

 

If removing OL movement made it boring, why are the other seven stages not boring?

 

[AzShooter]

I don't get it.  If we are trying to increase participation why not let handicapped people shoot without penalizing them.  That's the real reason to eliminate movement on OL.

 

Do we want to lose our older shooters and just tell them to find a different type of shooting?  

 

Look at this years WSSC.  I'll point out the one shooter that was brave enough to shoot from a wheelchair and had to use his feet to hold and fire his gun.  Do you think it was fair to penalize him 4 seconds per run?  Are you afraid he may win a stage?

 

Now I hear that people want Rimfire Revolver.  PCC was only added a few years ago and look how it's grown.  Test Rimfire Revolver at least and see how many people will enjoy it.

[Jim O'Young]

5 hours ago, AzShooter said:

Look at this years WSSC.  I'll point out the one shooter that was brave enough to shoot from a wheelchair and had to use his feet to hold and fire his gun.  Do you think it was fair to penalize him 4 seconds per run?  Are you afraid he may win a stage?

At the 2017 WSSC in Morro Bay, Troy made HIS decision to allow wheelchair shooter, Anthony Spinelli to shoot Outer Limits from the center box WITHOUT INCURRING ANY PROCEDURAL, OR TIME PENALTY.

 

Guess who WON the stage?? Hint: It WASN'T Max, KC, BJ, or ANYONE WHO WAS REQUIRED to move between boxes...

 

I was there and on the same squad as Anthony, who incidentally, shot quite well.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Jim O'Young
Corrected the date

[Jim O'Young]

2 minutes ago, Jim O'Young said:

At the 2016 WSSC in Morro Bay

Actually, it was in 2017 in Morro Bay...

[AzShooter]

 

Then let everyone shoot from the center box and let's see some real time breaks.

 

Just because one shooter shot from the center and won the stage doesn't mean the majority of handicap shooters have that capability.  Most are there just to beat their own performance.