USPSA Revolver Division?

[pskys2]

I know this has been hashed out before but.....

 

I do shoot Revolver Division in USPSA regularly.  I've been to at least 4 Revolver Nationals and will choose Revolver even if there are a small number.

I enjoyed it with 6 rounds and 8 round minor has not soured me, actually I enjoy it even more.

 

Revolver isn't a big Division and nothing will change the lure of Open/Limited/Carry Optics the high cap division and especially with a Dot have a huge lure.

Then Production is popular but declining, Single Stack is popular among a small die hard group (similar to Revolver) and then there's L10.

 

So any changes will likely disenfranchise someone and may lure in someone.  

 

My thought is to petition USPSA to open up Revolver to no restrictions.  Allow Compensators or Dots or ???  An argument could be made to removing the 8 shot minor restriction.  But I'm ok with it as is.  Even though it really tends to be moot.  The one down side would be the wear and tear on the equipment at those pressures, but then it would make a comp work better.

 

So basically I'd personally like to see Dots especially allowed.  Don't know if I'd go there for USPSA, but I'd definitely play with it.  Comps would be a cool kid thing, but doubt if it'd make someone a champion on just that.

 

Regardless I'll still be playing in the round gun division.

 

Edited April 18, 2021 by pskys2

[missed it by that much]

I would agree I feel that a red dot should be allowed on revolver in carry optics at least. Even with the red dot still at disadvantage against 17 round mags but for us die hards that still shoot revolver at least a red dot without being in open class.

[Toolguy]

The right comp with the right powder can work pretty well. I am running a 7 port titanium comp on my Bianchi Open gun (S&W 686) with about 135 power factor loads. The recoil is less than a .38 wadcutter. There is a lot of blast and noise, but muzzle flip is very minimal, much like an Open class auto. I don't shoot USPSA, but I can see the attraction to be able to use a dot and/or comp in revo or carry optics.

[Fishbreath]

I am firmly on Team Stop Changing The Rulebook Every Year, so I am reflexively opposed.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with the revolver rules as they stand.

[kmc]

They broke Revolver and Single Stack when they tried to collapse it with the rest of the divisions into a single Nationals. When they had their own standalone Nats in PASA, the match was very well attended with lots of people shooting both divisions, and no one had to choose them over Production, L10, etc. My answer is the rules aren't the limiting problem, the format is the problem.

[PatJones]

2 hours ago, pskys2 said:

My thought is to petition USPSA to open up Revolver to no restrictions.  Allow Compensators or Dots or ???  An argument could be made to removing the 8 shot minor restriction.  But I'm ok with it as is.  Even though it really tends to be moot.  The one down side would be the wear and tear on the equipment at those pressures, but then it would make a comp work better.

 

So basically I'd personally like to see Dots especially allowed.  Don't know if I'd go there for USPSA, but I'd definitely play with it.  Comps would be a cool kid thing, but doubt if it'd make someone a champion on just that.

 

Not just no. Hell no. You can shoot whatever want in open, go play there. Why does everyone who doesn't want to shoot open want to force me to shoot open? If you allow dots and comps in revolver, you then functionally -require- dots and comps in that division.

 

 

4 minutes ago, kmc said:

They broke Revolver and Single Stack when they tried to collapse it with the rest of the divisions into a single Nationals. When they had their own standalone Nats in PASA, the match was very well attended with lots of people shooting both divisions, and no one had to choose them over Production, L10, etc. My answer is the rules aren't the limiting problem, the format is the problem.

I went to Nationals at PASA Park in 2016. I don't think having a bunch of unclassified single stack shooters who stuck around another day really adds anything to Revolver Nats.

[pskys2]

41 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

I am firmly on Team Stop Changing The Rulebook Every Year, so I am reflexively opposed.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with the revolver rules as they stand.

I agree and I disagree, I'm a complicated type?

 

Especially on a S&W one can add a Dot with little fuss.  The cost isn't too much and it does help older eyes a lot.  I'm not convinced it will help anyone in particular by itself in a typical USPSA match.  I'm also not convinced a Comp, especially if we keep it as an 8 shot minor platform, would be a game changer.  Recoil doesn't seem to be a factor, to me at least, in 8 shot minor Revolver Division so I'm not convinced it would be worth the time, money or effort.  It would be something to play with though.

 

Reloads and transitions (my big weakness) make up much more time gains/losses.

[NoSteel]

I kicked the revolver w/ optics around on here a couple of years ago.  Feelings we’re mixed......

 

Edited April 18, 2021 by NoSteel

[pskys2]

9 minutes ago, PatJones said:

 

Not just no. Hell no. You can shoot whatever want in open, go play there. Why does everyone who doesn't want to shoot open want to force me to shoot open? If you allow dots and comps in revolver, you then functionally -require- dots and comps in that division.

 

 

I went to Nationals at PASA Park in 2016. I don't think having a bunch of unclassified single stack shooters who stuck around another day really adds anything to Revolver Nats.

On the Nationals SS/Rev back to back it was an attempt to expose more to the fun that could be had.  Might have had an affect on a few, but not many.  Still it was fun!

 

As for shooting Open in Open or Revolver? Especially if the 6 shot major vs 8 shot minor rule is kept I just don't see a big leap in a competitors score from the comp.  It may well be the Dot would make a bit more difference.  But spending the extra $300 on ammo and practice would be just as beneficial for most of us.  On the plus side as one gets older the joy of shooting without a special prescription is real.  

On the other side since both Open and CO are Hi-Cap Divisions now and the popularity of Dot sights, even on EDC guns, might well make sense.

Unlike the change to 8 shot minor, this would not push anyone to buy a new gun.  But then I'm always looking for a "need" I can justify filling.

[pskys2]

Guess I should have added a poll?

[Fishbreath]

1 hour ago, pskys2 said:

I'm not convinced it will help anyone in particular by itself in a typical USPSA match.

 

I don't think this is the case. CO is scored minor, and is approximately as fast as Limited major with irons, and I doubt it's the extra 2-3 rounds per magazine making the difference. Allowing dots means everyone has to get dots.

[pskys2]

10 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

 

I don't think this is the case. CO is scored minor, and is approximately as fast as Limited major with irons, and I doubt it's the extra 2-3 rounds per magazine making the difference. Allowing dots means everyone has to get dots.

I think it's that the top dogs have all gone to CO.  For me I saw very little, if any, difference in scores between Production, CO or even Limited.  Depending on the COF's of course, as some do tend to favor either Hi-Caps or longer, difficult shots favoring a Dot. 

But you could be right too, especially if it's nothing but us old geezers shooting Revolvers!

[Fishbreath]

As a thirtyish revolver guy, I also have a vested interest in keeping the division irons-only until my eyes start to go.

[SSGGlock]

Not a good idea, I think. There’s are already three dot divisions, only one revolver. However I do wish IDPA would do something with their revolver division, relax it more somehow.

[pskys2]

14 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

As a thirtyish revolver guy, I also have a vested interest in keeping the division irons-only until my eyes start to go.

I can respect that.  But when you get older it can still be adjusted for with a prescription.  Actually makes it easier to focus on that FS, it just gets old having the target "always" out of focus!

But just think how much faster you could be with a DOT?!  Might have to keep cool packs for your trigger finger to be applied between stages!

[RangerMcFadden]

We want more Revo shooters, right? Well, a USPSA rule change won’t bring the boys (and gals) to the yard.

 

However, there many things you can do to increase Revo and ICORE numbers. I usually keep this easy plan to myself as, for some unknown reason, people get really mad when I lay out this ingenious plan.

 

1.) vote for anti gun representatives.

2.) call your elected officials and demand they ban hicap (over 8 rounds) magazines.

3.) wear Levi jeans and dockers

4.) get all your gear at Dick’s sporting goods.

 

If you don’t agree, well, I don’t think you can consider yourself a Revo fan.

[MattInTheHat]

On 4/18/2021 at 2:40 PM, pskys2 said:

I know this has been hashed out before but.....

 

I do shoot Revolver Division in USPSA regularly.  I've been to at least 4 Revolver Nationals and will choose Revolver even if there are a small number.

I enjoyed it with 6 rounds and 8 round minor has not soured me, actually I enjoy it even more.

 

Revolver isn't a big Division and nothing will change the lure of Open/Limited/Carry Optics the high cap division and especially with a Dot have a huge lure.

Then Production is popular but declining, Single Stack is popular among a small die hard group (similar to Revolver) and then there's L10.

 

So any changes will likely disenfranchise someone and may lure in someone.  

 

My thought is to petition USPSA to open up Revolver to no restrictions.  Allow Compensators or Dots or ???  An argument could be made to removing the 8 shot minor restriction.  But I'm ok with it as is.  Even though it really tends to be moot.  The one down side would be the wear and tear on the equipment at those pressures, but then it would make a comp work better.

 

So basically I'd personally like to see Dots especially allowed.  Don't know if I'd go there for USPSA, but I'd definitely play with it.  Comps would be a cool kid thing, but doubt if it'd make someone a champion on just that.

 

Regardless I'll still be playing in the round gun division.

 

Aren't you arguing for limiting it even more though? 

 

Gonna throw out a weird idea here: A revolver has six shots that are generally more powerful than auto shots and requires a lot more effort than shooting an auto.

 

What's wrong with that? If you add 8 shots (which makes the reload much less interesting) and a dot (which makes recoil control off the trigger pull less interesting) and a comp (honestly, why? It's already minor?) etc. etc. what is the division we're trying to make? A revolver should be heavy, hard to reload, hard to shoot, and look cool as hell when you get it right.

[PatJones]

2 minutes ago, MattInTheHat said:

A revolver should be heavy, hard to reload, hard to shoot, and look cool as hell when you get it right.

You forgot the best part. It should make people sad when they find your name above theirs on the Practiscore results.

[Mcfoto]

To answer the OP, I vote no. If you want to put a dot on a wheelie, welcome to open. If you want to “complete” with other dot wheels, ICORE welcomes you with “open” arms (literally).

[MWP]

I vote no to any revolver changes. It’s fine as it is. There’s no glaring competitive differences in the game right now. Well, other than 6vs8, more on that below. 
 

Let’s talk red dots. The largest separator of divisions. If dots become legal in revolver, everyone shooting revolver will need one to be competitive. Dots are a 10-20% advantage. That’s huge. We discussed this on here a few years ago the last time it came up, but the last thing we need is to add a dot to make revolver more exclusive, more expensive, and more segregated from the “new” competitor perspective. 
 

Comps and ports. They don’t, in any division, have a measurable advantage on the clock. There are perceived differences, but not measurable ones. No one does .15 splits with a limited gun then .10 splits with their open gun because of the comp. 
 

Minor vs major. Let’s discuss 8 shot guns first. Let’s say it becomes a thing. Like dots, it would be a necessity to be competitive. If everyone is shooting the same, major if it was legal, there would be no difference. So, if it was legal, now people who want to come to it have to get 357mag factory ammo, or roll their own, and still score the same as the next guy. Throwing out the current ammo situation the US is in, is there a more expensive competitive handgun ammo? So now we have a 1k+ gun, just as much in add-ons and gear, and they have to buy the most expensive ammo in the 355/357 range? 
 

6vs8- no one makes a competitive 6 shot major gun. Smith made a 4”, all steel 625. The barrel needs another inch, preferably 2. It needs a titanium cylinder to not wear out regularly. Neither of these things were ever readily available. From that standpoint, I’m a huge fan of the 327/627/929 and now Ruger options, in the 2 most popular calibers in the world. I didn’t want 8 minor, and at that point I hadn’t even attended a nationals yet. Now I think it’s the best choice. There are steel shooters buying 929s to get classified in all the divisions. 
 

Revolver is what revolver is. If you want to make it cool, attend nationals, the IRC, the steel challenge. Host an icore match, host an outlaw match, get on a plane and go to a revolver match so you can come home and tell your friends how fun it was. Get people talking about it. Show them how good the gear is, how much fun it is, how good the people are in it. It’s not going to sell itself.
 

Revolver is spec Miata, from the outside it looks slow and boring, but on the inside guys are working for every shift and braking zone and grinning while doing it. 

[MikeBurgess]

 

12 hours ago, MWP said:

I vote no to any revolver changes. It’s fine as it is. There’s no glaring competitive differences in the game right now. Well, other than 6vs8, more on that below. 
 

Let’s talk red dots. The largest separator of divisions. If dots become legal in revolver, everyone shooting revolver will need one to be competitive. Dots are a 10-20% advantage. That’s huge. We discussed this on here a few years ago the last time it came up, but the last thing we need is to add a dot to make revolver more exclusive, more expensive, and more segregated from the “new” competitor perspective. 
 

Comps and ports. They don’t, in any division, have a measurable advantage on the clock. There are perceived differences, but not measurable ones. No one does .15 splits with a limited gun then .10 splits with their open gun because of the comp. 
 

Minor vs major. Let’s discuss 8 shot guns first. Let’s say it becomes a thing. Like dots, it would be a necessity to be competitive. If everyone is shooting the same, major if it was legal, there would be no difference. So, if it was legal, now people who want to come to it have to get 357mag factory ammo, or roll their own, and still score the same as the next guy. Throwing out the current ammo situation the US is in, is there a more expensive competitive handgun ammo? So now we have a 1k+ gun, just as much in add-ons and gear, and they have to buy the most expensive ammo in the 355/357 range? 
 

6vs8- no one makes a competitive 6 shot major gun. Smith made a 4”, all steel 625. The barrel needs another inch, preferably 2. It needs a titanium cylinder to not wear out regularly. Neither of these things were ever readily available. From that standpoint, I’m a huge fan of the 327/627/929 and now Ruger options, in the 2 most popular calibers in the world. I didn’t want 8 minor, and at that point I hadn’t even attended a nationals yet. Now I think it’s the best choice. There are steel shooters buying 929s to get classified in all the divisions. 
 

Revolver is what revolver is. If you want to make it cool, attend nationals, the IRC, the steel challenge. Host an icore match, host an outlaw match, get on a plane and go to a revolver match so you can come home and tell your friends how fun it was. Get people talking about it. Show them how good the gear is, how much fun it is, how good the people are in it. It’s not going to sell itself.
 

Revolver is spec Miata, from the outside it looks slow and boring, but on the inside guys are working for every shift and braking zone and grinning while doing it. 

Very well said 

[Fishbreath]

+1.

[BadShot]

13 hours ago, MWP said:

I vote no to any revolver changes. It’s fine as it is. There’s no glaring competitive differences in the game right now. Well, other than 6vs8, more on that below. 
 

Let’s talk red dots. The largest separator of divisions. If dots become legal in revolver, everyone shooting revolver will need one to be competitive. Dots are a 10-20% advantage. That’s huge. We discussed this on here a few years ago the last time it came up, but the last thing we need is to add a dot to make revolver more exclusive, more expensive, and more segregated from the “new” competitor perspective. 
 

Comps and ports. They don’t, in any division, have a measurable advantage on the clock. There are perceived differences, but not measurable ones. No one does .15 splits with a limited gun then .10 splits with their open gun because of the comp. 
 

Minor vs major. Let’s discuss 8 shot guns first. Let’s say it becomes a thing. Like dots, it would be a necessity to be competitive. If everyone is shooting the same, major if it was legal, there would be no difference. So, if it was legal, now people who want to come to it have to get 357mag factory ammo, or roll their own, and still score the same as the next guy. Throwing out the current ammo situation the US is in, is there a more expensive competitive handgun ammo? So now we have a 1k+ gun, just as much in add-ons and gear, and they have to buy the most expensive ammo in the 355/357 range? 
 

6vs8- no one makes a competitive 6 shot major gun. Smith made a 4”, all steel 625. The barrel needs another inch, preferably 2. It needs a titanium cylinder to not wear out regularly. Neither of these things were ever readily available. From that standpoint, I’m a huge fan of the 327/627/929 and now Ruger options, in the 2 most popular calibers in the world. I didn’t want 8 minor, and at that point I hadn’t even attended a nationals yet. Now I think it’s the best choice. There are steel shooters buying 929s to get classified in all the divisions. 
 

Revolver is what revolver is. If you want to make it cool, attend nationals, the IRC, the steel challenge. Host an icore match, host an outlaw match, get on a plane and go to a revolver match so you can come home and tell your friends how fun it was. Get people talking about it. Show them how good the gear is, how much fun it is, how good the people are in it. It’s not going to sell itself.
 

Revolver is spec Miata, from the outside it looks slow and boring, but on the inside guys are working for every shift and braking zone and grinning while doing it. 

Very good points.  I don't mind shooting my 627 with a dot in Open, it's just for fun for me.  Just throwing this out:  If a dot makes a gun 10%-20% more competitive, why not allow 625's to have a dot?  Maybe even allow them to shoot minor, but to be scored as major. A 5-inch minor 625 would be really nice to shoot.  It might help make up some of the 2 round disadvantage.

[Fishbreath]

On 4/20/2021 at 10:45 PM, MWP said:

Show them how good the gear is, how much fun it is, how good the people are in it. It’s not going to sell itself.

 

Notwithstanding that I've been doing the opposite of my part on 'the gear is good' lately, in large part due to my inclination to tinker, I've found that it's pretty easy to get people to go from, "Huh, you can shoot revolvers in USPSA?" to "That's pretty cool."

 

It hasn't resulted in any new competition at local matches yet, but it has at least started some people down the road.

[MattInTheHat]

On 4/20/2021 at 7:39 PM, PatJones said:

You forgot the best part. It should make people sad when they find your name above theirs on the Practiscore results.

Well said, I still enjoy that stage at the 2012 IPSC Nationals where I was 17th overall across all divisions. Six and six with 20 yards of running, crazy legs got it done!