Revolver Divisions Future In Uspsa

[AustinMike]

I can certainly understand the frustration of managing all the divisions, but I'd hate to see USPSA come to a point where people like myself can't compete because there is no room for our preferred equipment. I'm a .45 ACP guy. I just love that caliber. When I got started in USPSA this summer, the only gun I had that was really suitable for competition was my 1911. L-10 is the perfect place for me. I can carry high-cap mags (for a single stack) and be competitive.

I saw that there was a revolver division and a number of shooters locally were out there shooting revolvers. I thought that was cool and bought one the first chance I got and now I'm getting geared up to take it out. It's nice that there are two solid divisions that I can be competitive within, with my preferred caliber and the guns I own. If revolver goes away, and possibly L-10 with it, that's a big blow against us .45 shooters, in my opinion. I could shoot the single stack division, but have to give up mag capacity to shoot major, as well as any "race" type gear, from what I understand. Moving Revolver to Production and reducing scoring to Minor is not acceptable, not to mention the capacity disadvantage. My only other option would be to buy a double stack .45 and compete in Limited at a capacity disadvantage or shoot Production at a Minor scoring disadvantage.

How about keeping things so us .45 guys can have fun too?

[hopalong]

Well If opinions are still flying, I'll toss mine in.

2 divisions......

Race gun.........Production

You can guess the race gun, anything that doesn't fit production guns.

Production........NOTHING that costs over 750 bucks.......has been inproduction and has at least 150,000 units sold (now that is a production gun) internal work OK but no change of sights, grip change ok. Who cares if it is single action, double action only, SA/DA as long as it fits the 150,000 units sold/produced.

Mag capacity to limited the original production of the original model, or 10 max.

Now, let us be real here....

Race gun:

Combine Limited and Open and L-10.....They are essentially the same any way!!!!!

make sub catagories if you want.

Production:

include single stacks into Production, using the now prodution holster and and pouch locations.

Revolver:

keep revolver, but add OPEN Revolver with Iron and optics in seperate sub catagories.

My opinion......but you know what I think about opinions!!!! (see signature lines)

HOP

BUT still, talk with your Area Director....send Voight an e-mail....they will not know how you stand unless you do.

Edited November 7, 2005 by hopalong

[MikeFoley]

It wouldn't be right to eliminate any division without seeing how it would affect local matches. Every local match I go to has some wheelgunners, and the % to total shooters is much greater than Nationals.

[R112mercer]

Hey-sus Cristo!

First off, I have heard the same thing Hop heard, and I heard it from an AD.

I think this would be a Bad Thing (duh, guess what Division I shoot in). I don't do anything administratively so it's not fair for me to say anything about Sedro, but I can''t see it being to hard to have the extra Divisions.

I like the idea of SS, every guy with a 1911 has a place to play, I've heard there's a few guys out there who own single stack 1911's.

I can see the reason for dropping L-10, but I can also see the reason for L-10 shooter's getting pissed.

Folding Revolver into Production (also heard from same AD) would kill the Division. Hardcore guys would still know about it, but unless a rookie saw a guy with a wheelgun shoot, and have a chance at winning, he wouldn't know it exists or wouldn't want to play.

New guys are always amazed that you shoot a wheelgun, even more amazed when you kick ass with a wheelgun. It's difficult for them to wrap their brain around the fact that a guy limited to 6 shots and a 1.5 sec. (if you're fast) reload can whomp on guys with 10+ rounds and 1 sec. reloads.

Having a prize table for a solo Revolver shooter is stupid, and not allowable by the rules. It's nice that they try and reward guys for shooting the Division, but this isn't a freakin' giveaway. I shoot a revolver because I enjoy it, and like the other guys who play my game. I don't have to be coddled to get me to come out and play, I'll play because I like to play. I never liked the idea of trying to get guys to come and play with all the "feel good" crap they do sometimes. If a guy's that big a pain-in-the-ass that you have to make all sorts of special rules and prizes to keep him than he's just not worth it. He'll run crying to his mommy the first time something doesn't go his way.

I do like the idea of different Divisions and Classes. It does give -something- to the newer guys, a little reward for doing well without having to have a name like Leatham or Sevigny to do it. I absolutely adore the Ladies awards, we have precious few women in this game and it's nice to have the talent that we've got. These are really talented shooters that some out and play against the best and show us what a lady can do with a gun.

As for going "Back to ye Olden Tymes" of heads-up shooting. Why not execute the last place shooter, or at least severly cripple him for being a sub-human display of lack of talent? Heads-up would be the fastest way to destroy this sport. You would effectively broadcast to all the gun-rag tools out there what they've been saying about us. "It's an equiptment race, you need the income of a third world nation just to afford their reloading equipment, let alone touch one of their guns." Not quite the message I want to send.

[Carlos]

Seems like many of us here may own a revolver (625 even) but we do not shoot it often as our semi-auto guns are our "main weapon" in USPSA.

Should our wheel guns be relegated to the classifieds by eliminating Revolver division? Heck NO!

The answer to low participation is to generate more participation.

At the last club match in Thurmont, MD (site of the excellent Mason-Dixon 3 gun) we mustered no fewer than 8 revolver shooters just by spreading the word that there would be a "revolver squad". We even lured Phil Strader into testing out a stage with a 625. The match director responded to the revolver sign up by designing a mostly revolver friendly format and placing all of us on the same squad. We had such a good time that we are planning to do it again in November.

All but one of us on the "revolver squad" typically shoot semis. All of us own suitable revolvers for USPSA.

For the future, I think all gun owners could benefit from increased cross-over participation by those who shoot SASS/CAS where the semi auto does not exist or from IDPA which does not appear likely to eliminate their revolver divisions. The elimination of Revolver would make USPSA less attractive to wheel gun shooters from other disciplines.

Signed,

D.C. "not a revolver shooter" Johnson

[dillon]

I'll play the heretic for a change . How about rolling L-10 and the new Single Stack class

into an L-8 category; then the 8 shot revolvers would have a home? This would also allow

the other single stack handguns to have a nicer place to play as well.

[Bubber]

I have taken the hint and inquired about the deal before us. I will await the Area 4's response. Just because I do not shoot in another's division I will not say that their Division is to go. I know people have lobbied long and hard to get their division recognized. I will let you know what I hear. later rdd

[pskys2]

Well, let's see USPSA has a "NEW" provisional division that requires a "SPECIFIC" model of firearm. And they want to eliminate a division for a whole "TYPE" of handgun. This makes a lot of sense.

Maybe they are trying to attract IDPA shooters by imitating the worst side of IDPA. Guess it might make them feel at home. Would hope the USPSA board would see the angst caused by recent IDPA Equipment Rule changes.

But, then back in the 90's I didn't like the idea of "Sponsored" shooters and big prize tables corrupting our sport. It lead to some ugly moments and almost killed the sport. That monsters head is still there, it's just been dormant due to IDPA (which it helped to create).

It was only by branching out with different Divisions that the trend was reversed. And as for classes, they have a legitimate purpose.

The classes should be left alone. The Divisions could benefit from tweaking, but not "ELIMINATING" a whole Type of handgun.

Hop start a new thread on Adjusting Divisions.

And everyone contact your AD and Voight!

Dave

[John Heiter]

I'm getting fed up with USPSA and everyone else treating people outside of Open/Limited like they don't pay dues. Personally, I think the idea of tossing the revolver division because there aren't enough shooters to fund it is ridiculous. I've put on quite a few matches now and at every one of them, we subscribed to a 3-5-7 (or some variant) format. To give a prize (cash, plaque, ribbon, whatever) for first place you had to have three shooters in the division. To give one for 2nd place you had to have five, etc. If the match fee from three shooters isn't enough to fund whatever sort of plaque or ribbon you're giving out at your match then you need to re-examine your match fees or your plaque choice.

As far as prize money or tables, let the shooters fund their own divisions. To make the math easy, say you have 100 competitors and you're going to spend $1,000 on the prize tables. If there are 40 in Open, 30 in Limited, 15 in L-10, 10 in Production, and 5 Revolver then we put $400 on the Open table, $300 on the Limited table, $150 on L-10, $100 on Production, and $50 on Revolver. Each division gets their fair share of what they contributed to the match. It's really not that hard to deal with.

If you're looking to cut out something, as a match director, I'd much rather give a plaque to the best of three revolver shooters than I would to all the special classes like Super Senior, Senior, Lady, Junior, etc. I know it's not politically correct but how about we award shooting and not age and sex? To me, encouraging a group to shoot means giving them a half off match fee, not an award for being the fastest old guy.

If we cut out revolver, we're eliminating a place for a lot of shooters out there who just like shooting wheel guns. As far as the new single stack division, I just don't get it. Modify the L-10 rules if people downloading widebodies is really a problem, but if you're a 1911 shooter and you can't find a place to shoot it competitively in the divisions we currently have then that doesn't mean we need to make you a new division, it means you suck and you should practice more. Hell, I think we need a special division for people who can't hit an 8" plate at 15 yards so that I can win a prize too.

[JFD]

The Provisional SS division is perfect only for those who are scared of downloaded Limited guns and race rigs(Sorry for using such a broad brush for that statement). For those who love 8 round mags, Production gear, and SS 1911s, guess what? All that stuff is legal in L-10 right now!

Locally the vast majority of L-10 shooters are running SS guns in race rigs (my wife is one of them - used to be me in L-10). The few who have IDPA/Production type gear are some crossover shooters who run Glocks and couldn't shoot in the Provisional division anyway.

Face it, there are a lot of folks who don't shoot THAT seriously who like the FREEDOM of race rigs but have no desire to buy a Limited gun. Many are those same shooters we're supposed to be trying to attract to the sport. Instead it seems we have a faction who believe nearly duplicating IDPA divisions is going to attract a bunch of shooters. The reality is that USPSA has ignored the untapped pool of women shooters, many of whom are married to our male members. My wife will attest to the fact that carry holsters suck for women, while race holsters, mags, and the L-10 placement rules mean they can get their rigs set up comfortably.

If not many shooters show up at matches, then fine, we won't get awards past the division winner. That's our problem. I've yet to see how either (or any) division hurts the sport.

Again, I predict a management change if either division is dropped.

L-10 discussions drive me nuts! I'll drop out now since I'm incapable of discussing the subject as Sam intended.

[Tom Freeman]

Keep it and L-10.

All the different divisions are not hurting anybody. Why on earth when we are trying to get this completely non-pc sport to grow, would anyone want to alienate anyone.

Those that shoot revo aren’t in it for the prizes and hot girls anyway.

If its just about friendly competition, who cares what division someone is in or how many division USPSA recognizes.

As far as revo costing a MD a bunch of extra $$$... BS. If your match is running so close to being in the red that you cant afford a single plaque for HOA Revo, then find another MD. If only one Revo shooter signs up for your match, ask him if you can take the $$$ from his plaque and buy a 2nd Place Junior shooter his own plaque. I bet he offers to buy it for you.

And yes, I was a MD for three tournament level state matches, a club pres for seven years, and the Eastern Colorado SC for two years.

[Carlos]

"I'm getting fed up with USPSA and everyone else treating people outside of Open/Limited like they don't pay dues"

- like the 2005 Nationals match book title that read: "2005 LIMITED NATIONALS and in tiny letters: "with production and revolver" ? Please. Could Sedro have expressed more disdain for the other divisions if they tried? I doubt it.

And as for prize tables? I've never heard of it. If we dump anything, dump prize tables. Most of that stuff just gets sold off through classifieds or it sits around unused.

Regards,

D.C. Johnson

Edited November 7, 2005 by Carlos

[Flexmoney]

I'm getting fed up with USPSA and everyone else treating people outside of Open/Limited like they don't pay dues. Personally, I think the idea of tossing the revolver division because there aren't enough shooters to fund it is ridiculous. I've put on quite a few matches now and at every one of them, we subscribed to a 3-5-7 (or some variant) format. To give a prize (cash, plaque, ribbon, whatever) for first place you had to have three shooters in the division. To give one for 2nd place you had to have five, etc. If the match fee from three shooters isn't enough to fund whatever sort of plaque or ribbon you're giving out at your match then you need to re-examine your match fees or your plaque choice.

As far as prize money or tables, let the shooters fund their own divisions. To make the math easy, say you have 100 competitors and you're going to spend $1,000 on the prize tables. If there are 40 in Open, 30 in Limited, 15 in L-10, 10 in Production, and 5 Revolver then we put $400 on the Open table, $300 on the Limited table, $150 on L-10, $100 on Production, and $50 on Revolver. Each division gets their fair share of what they contributed to the match. It's really not that hard to deal with.

If you're looking to cut out something, as a match director, I'd much rather give a plaque to the best of three revolver shooters than I would to all the special classes like Super Senior, Senior, Lady, Junior, etc. I know it's not politically correct but how about we award shooting and not age and sex? To me, encouraging a group to shoot means giving them a half off match fee, not an award for being the fastest old guy.

If we cut out revolver, we're eliminating a place for a lot of shooters out there who just like shooting wheel guns. As far as the new single stack division, I just don't get it. Modify the L-10 rules if people downloading widebodies is really a problem, but if you're a 1911 shooter and you can't find a place to shoot it competitively in the divisions we currently have then that doesn't mean we need to make you a new division, it means you suck and you should practice more. Hell, I think we need a special division for people who can't hit an 8" plate at 15 yards so that I can win a prize too.

I agree...on each..and every point !

[Flexmoney]

dillon,

I have mentioned Limited-8 a few times here (but, not with respect to revolver). It doesnt seem to get any traction.

---------------

I've put in an email to my AD. I'll report back any info I get.

[Bones]

... umm, we have 2 revolver divisions in IDPA.

Besides, with the "mass exodus" of IDPA 625 refugees from earlier this year, you should be overflowing with revolver shooters and thier dues.

Good Luck,

Craig

Edited November 7, 2005 by Bones

[RickB]

Wow, I'm amazed a how many posts there were, in a thread concerning revolvers in IPSC, before someone would find a way to bash IDPA. Marvelous. I like the part about the "angst" within the sport, over the new rules. We increased our match attendance in '05, by about 25% over '04. The angst was truly felt by few, and most have stopped whining, so why bring it up now?

We don't get many revo shooters in our Section, but as someone correctly pointed out, what harm do they do? It's not like MDs sweat about revo-friendly CoFs; as a buddy put it, "Revo shooters are used to getting f-ed-with". They don't complain about 9-shot arrays, so why should I complain about their having fun?

L10 was not intended as a single stack division, and while it is dominated by single stacks, has the perceived need for a Limited division loading only ten rounds, gone away? Are there folks in Cali, NJ, Hawaii, etc., who couldn't get hi-cap mags ten years ago, but who can now get them? Aren't they the people for whom L10 was intended? That someone decided to design 10-round mags for single stacks was just fortunate for shooters who don't have (or want . . .) a hi-cap race gun. I shot "Limited 8" for a few years, and would shoot Limited with 10-round mags, if that's where the sport goes.

Rolling L10 into Production would take care of the "need" for a separate single stack division (if you ignore the folks for whom the division was intended), and allowing 8-shot revos in Production would be fun, too.

How about instead of getting rid of Revo or L10, we get rid of Limited? Since everyone can get 10-round mags, let's have everyone shoot 10s. Keep Revo and Production.

[BritinUSA]

I think they should roll up revolver division as sub-divisions of Production, Limited and Open, depending on the type of modifications that may have been done to the gun in question.

I think we should close down Limited 10 and replace with Single Stack but allow any Single stack not just 1911.

I would match the PF's with IPSC. and lift the 10 round limit on Production, and bring at least that part in line with IPSC, though I have issues with the rest of the way that IPSC handles Production.

Just my 2 cents, not looking to offend anyone.

[Carmoney]

I've put on quite a few matches now and at every one of them, we subscribed to a 3-5-7 (or some variant) format. To give a prize (cash, plaque, ribbon, whatever) for first place you had to have three shooters in the division. To give one for 2nd place you had to have five, etc. If the match fee from three shooters isn't enough to fund whatever sort of plaque or ribbon you're giving out at your match then you need to re-examine your match fees or your plaque choice.

As far as prize money or tables, let the shooters fund their own divisions. To make the math easy, say you have 100 competitors and you're going to spend $1,000 on the prize tables. If there are 40 in Open, 30 in Limited, 15 in L-10, 10 in Production, and 5 Revolver then we put $400 on the Open table, $300 on the Limited table, $150 on L-10, $100 on Production, and $50 on Revolver. Each division gets their fair share of what they contributed to the match. It's really not that hard to deal with.

If we really want to have multiple divisions growing and thriving in this sport, we need to abandon the whole concept of "proportional" awards, whether they be 3-5-7 or whatever formula. My suggestion is to announce ahead of time that 50% of the entry fees (or whatever the pay-back percentage might be) will be paid to the shooters who finish 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in each division, divided equally between all divisions. If first prize is $400 for Open, then it's also $400 for Revolver. Let the shooters decide where their best chances are, and pick a division accordingly. Lots of people would switch over to the smaller divisions, figuring they would have a better chance of finishing in the money. Same with plaques, trophies or whatever.

As it currently stands, the proportional payback creates a self-fulfilling prophesy, and very little incentive for competitive shooters to shoot in those "other" divisions. Gaming the divisions would be a good thing! As it stands now, the majority of USPSA shooters are gaming the frickin' class system, which is a very unhealthy thing, in my opinion.

[John Dunn]

So the guy who beats 200 other shooters in Limited gets the same prize as the guy who beat 20 in Revo? Not seeing the logic in that. I vote no for revolver division welfare.

It should remain a division, though.

[Carmoney]

I use my vacation time to chase the deadly pheasant in Iowa.

Carmoney-I'm headed your way next Saturday-you will be safe from vicious pheasant strikes for a week at least

Dave, I know you're an Airedale man.....do you happen to know anything about these line-bred bird dogs coming out of Tennessee that everybody's talking about?

Edited November 7, 2005 by Carmoney

[bgary]

First off, I have heard the same thing Hop heard, and I heard it from an AD

Not sure who that would have been... but my *guess* is that it was either a personal opinion, or a trial balloon. I'm not aware of any "board-level" plan to get rid of any divisions - the discussion has not (to my knowledge) reached the point where any action is likely or imminent. And... as the Area-1 AD, I would *hope* that I'd be involved in the conversation.

Having said that... it is *my* personal opinion that we have too many divisions now, and we're growing on January 1... which raises the question about what we do about it. After we've added the SingleStack division, should we next add Open-10? Production Hi-Cap? 8-round Revolver? All of those are real requests.... and I don't know that I like the way that idea is headed. We already have 5 divisions (Opn, Lim, L10, Rev, Prod) and 7 classes (GM, M, A, B, C, D, U).... which means that at a 35-shooter club match *everyone* could win a "first in class in division" award, without actually beating anyone.

My opinion (NOTE: Not a "USPSA position", just Bruce's opinion)... is that in order to "win" something, you should have to "beat someone else." Just my $.02

The idea I've floated around for years, is that we should have *three* divisions, with optional "categories" (or maybe "sub-divisions") within them. The divisions could be:

-- Open (anything goes)

-- Limited (anything goes except comps and dots)

-- Production (DA first shot, stock or nearly-stock guns)

The "categories" could include things like "reduced capacity" and "single-stack" and ... yes... "revolver".

The idea is that, by using the categories, ANY gun can have a place to play in USPSA... for example, "Open-10" is an Open division gun, with the "reduced capacity" subdivision. If there are enough Open-10 shooters in a match to warrant recognition, great. If not, the shooter is still in the Open division.

Same thing with revolver - I'd actually argue that making a revolver "category" (which is the way it was until about 4 years ago) presents MORE options and MORE flexibility for the round-gun shooter:

Open Revolver? No problem - Open division, revolver category

8-round revolver? No problem, Limited division, revolver category

6-round revolver? No problem, Limited (or Production) division, reduced-capacity division

etc, etc, etc

The elegance (?) of it is, that revolvers could play in *any* division (rather than just the "Revolver" division), and if there are enough revolvers in a division to warrant recognition, they'll get recognized. That's true of ANY gun - have an old single-stack Open gun in the safe? No problem, bring it out, there will be a place for it to play WITHOUT creating a whole new division. It would be in Open division, and would qualify for both Single-Stack and Reduced Capacity "categories"... and if there are enough similar guns to warrant recognition, great. If not, the club only "has to" award the requisite "Open Division" awards, and... that single-stack Open gun would be fully eligible to get an Open Division award anyway.

I know that "getting rid" of the Revolver division is not a popular idea, but I'd ask a couple of questions of the people who are going to chew my head off:

-- Is there likely to be a point in time when there is enough participation in Revolver to have their own Nationals? If not... should it be on the same footing as the Divisions that do have that level of participation?

and

-- What *should* we do with the divisions? Does it make any "sense" to have 8 or 10 or (by the time we start adding rifle and shotgun classifications) 15 or 20 different divisions, each with its own classification? If not.... where does it make sense to draw a line? I think that the above - 3 divisions, with subdivisions for special recognition - provides a huge degree of flexibility, now and into the future: for the shooter who wants to shoot a wheelgun, for the club that wants to recognize them, etc... without *requiring* that recognition where the participation doesn't support it.

My $.02... but, just my *opinion*, not something the Board is actively working on (as far as I know.)

Bruce

Edited November 7, 2005 by bgary

[Wakal]

The idea I've floated around for years, is that we should have *three* divisions, with optional "categories" (or maybe "sub-divisions") within them. The divisions could be:

-- Open (anything goes)

-- Limited (anything goes except comps and dots)

-- Production (DA first shot, stock or nearly-stock guns)

Bruce Gary for President...of the world!

Alex

[cliffwalsh]

The idea I've floated around for years, is that we should have *three* divisions, with optional "categories" (or maybe "sub-divisions") within them. The divisions could be:

-- Open (anything goes)

-- Limited (anything goes except comps and dots)

-- Production (DA first shot, stock or nearly-stock guns)

Why not make production a optional category or sub-division of limited??

[Wakal]

I wouldn't dare to speak for Bruce Gary (especially since he gave me my very own rule, named after me and everything, in the new Multigun rules)...however...since I talked about the same sort of thing earlier, I will expound on my version:

-- Open (anything goes)

-- Limited (anything goes except comps and dots)

-- Production (DA first shot, stock or nearly-stock guns, ten round limit/all minor so the Division doesn't become "what the factory can slap -II or "Elite" on the side and make a all-up 18-round Limited gun" like IPSC's version has become). I'd give the latecomers who have taken over IPSC their "race" holsters, though. Besides, as I found in this thread, woman like da race holsters (for themselves)

Alex

[Carmoney]

The sad part of them discussing dumping our division (if that turns out to be true) is that Revolver seems to be in a definite growth trend. We might have had plenty more than 20 at the USPSA Nationals in '05 except that virtually no slots were awarded in our division, and in order to make the waiting list, you had to jump on the computer shortly after midnight on the night the waiting list became active. A bunch of international wheelgunners are now talking about attending our Nationals in '06. Revolver participation at most of the area matches and other big USPSA matches was up significantly this year. Interest and activity on this very forum is way up this year. We are getting lots of new cross-over and dual-discipline shooters from the IDPA ranks. And the latest issue of Front Sight had more Revolver coverage and wheelgun photos than probably any issue that's ever been printed!

It would be a real shame to kill this thing just when it's ready to blossom.

Mike