Revolver Divisions Future In Uspsa

[hopalong]

A little birdie told me this weekend that there has been some conversation among the higher ups in USPSA about getting rid of Revolver division, or at least moving it over to Production since they consider it a "Production type of gun"

Now if this is true, and the Revolver shooters want the division to stay as is it is time now to have a conversation with your Section Coordinators about it, AND your Area Reps, and get some more revo shooters at the clubs......there are quite a few shooters out there that shoot a wheel as a second gun, time to talk them into shooting it as the first gun a little more often.

I know our fine president pretty much would be glad to see the Revolver division go away, I don't know the personal feelings of any of the Area Reps but I will find out the Ideas of mine in the real near future.

The same birdie told me that there is interest in getting the number of divisions down, that 5 now and possibly 6 was too many. so it may not only be Revo that gets the AXE.

HOPALONG

[shred]

Don't we have 6 (or 7) already as-of Jan 1?

Revo

Prod

Single-Stack

L10

Limited

(Modified)

Open

I agree we've got too many, but where to cut?

[JFD]

I hope it's not true. Interest in either division could be increased with a little marketing. Instead USPSA focuses on Limited and Open which are the divisions that scare off a lot of potential new members.

Management would likely survive killing off Revolver, but I think there would be much more of a membership reaction if they kill off L-10 (always treated as a problem). I don't see any other division being targeted.

Personally I can't see that a low number of shooters in Revolver hurts anyone, and is a good thing for those who want to shoot there. Can definitely see them imagining L-10 as too much competition for the "1911/CDP division". Too bad for the people who love the rules freedom/racer on a budget aspect that we have now.

If either division goes, I'd say it's time for a management change.

[MikeFoley]

Not to start the flame war on my head, but I would rather see L10 get the axe instead of Revolver.

I suppose the membership wouldn't have been included in this decision.

Thanks Hopalong for calling it to our attention, I will talk to my AD next time I see him.

I fear that some of our leaders are legislating their opinions instead of those they represent.

[Walt S]

This is crap. If you (the powers to be) don't shoot a wheel gun there is no reason to want to get ride of it. WHAT IS THE REAL PROBLEM if any with the revolver division. Is it hurting any one.. Is it costing the group any money. I just started shooting revolver this year to help the group grow. I'd hate to have all that investment trashed.

[Merlin Orr]

I hope it's not true. Interest in either division could be increased with a little marketing. Instead USPSA focuses on Limited and Open which are the divisions that scare off a lot of potential new members.

Management would likely survive killing off Revolver, but I think there would be much more of a membership reaction if they kill off L-10 (always treated as a problem). I don't see any other division being targeted.

Personally I can't see that a low number of shooters in Revolver hurts anyone, and is a good thing for those who want to shoot there. Can definitely see them imagining L-10 as too much competition for the "1911/CDP division". Too bad for the people who love the rules freedom/racer on a budget aspect that we have now.

If either division goes, I'd say it's time for a management change.

+ 1 for what Jerry is saying. We have seen the reaction to the thought of L-10 going...very vocal and negative. I do believe if L 10 was gone most all of these people already have a SS gun in the safe and - after the obligatory bitching - would be back with a skinny gun and still shoot. I have yet to try the revo class and probably never will but I very much support those who choose to shoot it. From the outside looking in it seems that the revo shooters are a lot like those who would/will be the core of the new 1911/CDP division. Independent and very "grass roots" people who don't mind telling those who oppose "us" shooters to bugger off. We need this - badly.

My .02.

Edited November 7, 2005 by Merlin Orr

[AustinMike]

Man, I hope they don't do that! I'm getting my revolver worked on as I write this, gearing up for my first crack at competing with it. Geez, I know there's not a lot of revolver shooters, but it's a truly unique division and it would be silly to get rid of it. Especially in light of introducing another division in January for 1911s. If they want to cut back on divisions, why introduce single stack? I primarily shoot my good ol' 1911 in L-10 and can't see shooting single stack division myself. Make a division for a single stack with lower mag capacity than L-10, but remove wheelguns?

[Kingman]

the thing is with the new 1911 division I don't see a problem with killing L10. It would seem to me that they both accomplish the same thing.

But hell whats it matter anyhow. Who does it hurt? No one.

I would like modified though in the states, I think it would be fun.

[AzShooter]

I can't understand getting rid of Revolver Division. Most people start out shooting a revolver and this has been the idea of having the division in the first place.

Now, there seems to be a growing spurt and although there were only 20 revos at the Nationals if there were more slots available I'm sure more shooters would attend.

[Carmoney]

I guess I don't see how anybody could truly miss L-10. If you're shooting a wide-body, then just be a man and shoot Limited already. If you're shooting a single-stack, then the new Single Stack division will be perfect for you.

The problem with shit-canning Revolver is that there is no other division where the wheelguns can compete with any degree of fairness, unless they do something really interesting like limit Production to 8 rounds and allow the 8-round revolvers to play (with reasonable adjustments to accommodate moonclips in front of the body).

A much better solution is for USPSA to decide it's going to respect the fact that Revo is a full-fledged bona fide division, award comparable prize tables at Nationals, etc., and really encourage more people to participate. How about a stand-alone Revolver Nationals, sponsored by all the players in the industry, instead of just sucking our entry fees over onto some other division's prize table, like we saw this year?

HEY! Maybe (here's a wild idea) USPSA's board of directors should always be comprized of 2 shooters from each division, instead of the current geographical Area thing!

Edited November 7, 2005 by Carmoney

[North]

Do Not kill L10!

It gives us single stackers a place to play with race gear. The SSD doesn't. The quickest way to Limited is L10.

Leave revolver alone, it doesn't hurt anyone unless you design stages for it.

my 0.02

[Viggen]

What Carmoney said......and

L-10 was intended as a skinny gun class although that has changed at the upper levels. With SS there is no need for L-10.

Dump one if you have to and if you happen to be running a wide body in L-10 shift over and play with the other wide bodies.

Limited and Open leads NOBODY to this sport. Eventually a lot of folks go there but if you want to grow the sport..........(usual argument follows)

But there is no need for both L-10 and SS. And yes, I do shoot L-10 with a single stack, and Limited, and Revo. And sometime even Production.

Going 8 shot in production would get the Production guys up in arms, me thinks - even if it would be fun to see 8-hole revolvers on sort of an even basis with the bottom feeders.

As to the political end of things - I don't know enough about the functional decision making structure involved in USPSA or the sponsorship involved to have much on an opinion.

[flagaman]

I just this year started to shoot in the revolver division. I'm still trying to decide if I want to get my 686 set up for moon clips or buy a 625 and now it might not even matter. Not good!

Mike, kind of like the idea of two reps from each division on the board, but with so many people shooting in more than one division how would you determine who to send?

Howard

[Wakal]

Open, Limited, and Production.

Enough divisions already.

"Modified" is a cute idea with wicked cool gear...that should be running in Open. L10, as already said in this thread...load the mags full already and play in Limited. Production...well, with the 10-round limit "leveling" the playing field (unlike the gamy "factory" gun driven IPSC version)...good enough. And Revolver...sorry, but 20 (2005) or 17 (2004) or 16 (2003) or 19 (2002) or 2 (!) (2001) or 5 (2000) guys at the Nationals are a failed division that needs to go away...as it currently is.

Speaking with my MD hat on, I'd be willing to recognize a sub-category "top shooter" WITHIN an existing division. Say, top wheelgun in Production (or Limited, or...bring out those awesome ported/dot-sight ICORE guns and play Open). A sub-category like top single-stack (ANY single-stack, including the P220) inside Limited, seems logical.

But having to recognize Open/Limited/Lim10/Production/Revolver (and soon, Single Stack...but NOT with a P220, you heretics, you anti-JMB heathens!) mandates a huge outlay in trophies for VERY limited return in shooters. Anyone shooting L10 is running Limited already. Folding wheelguns (and yes, I run a wheelgun now and then, too) into Production (or Limited/Open as the wheelgun is configured) removes having outright embarrassment such as the 2005 Texas State Limited with ONE revolver shooter showing up and having his own prize table (sigh).

Ditch revolver.

Ditch the Bill Clinton/Sara Brady Memorial Division, Limited-10.

Kill Single-Stack (but not P220, or any OTHER singlestack) now, before it starts.

Ditch Modified.

The closer we get to heads-up, the happier I am.

Alex

[AzShooter]

Having one revolver shooting with their own table is rediculous. But they should be recognized even if it is with a plaque or trophy. In most sports with classes or divisions prizes are determined by the number of participants in that division. One shooter, recognition. Three shooters, prize for first place only. Five shooters, 1 - 3rd. etc.

At the upcoming Area 2 there are 18 revolver shooters signed up.

Once discussion on this forum is already setting up a Southern Revolver Championship and there appears to be a good following for that.

Revolver Division may need a little tweeking but it belongs in USPSA.

[Gun Phan]

I'm sure the #1 Revo shooter in the world and his buddies: Smith & Wesson will have a strong influence on USPSA's decision.

Prize table would look awkward without any Smith & Wesson guns.

[hopalong]

OK before it goes crazy, let me add.....

I put this out so the people that needs to be contacted can be contacted.

I would rather it not come down to a debate of .....Kill l-10, combine this, ect.

IF you want to debate this please do it on a seperate thread....but that will come down to a bunch of bickering and bantering of kill your division, leave mine alone, so maybe let's not go there now.

What needs to be done is contact your friends get them "involved"......get the "also shoot revolver once a blue moon" shooters to do so more often. Contact your Area Director, M. Voight find out what they are thinking.

What USPSA Directors need to do is contact the section Coordinators and then have them (SC) find out from their clubs what and where the interest is...Maybe put a request for comments in Front sight???????

The last thing that needs to be done is NOTHING !!!!!!!

People forget about things if it is not in their faces/thoughts.

SAM

[D.carden]

What is the "reason(s)" for killing off a few divisions.

Did i miss something?

I pay full price match fees, air fares, rental car, hotel etc.

Im current with my membership dues.

I support my club level revo div ( all by myself too most of the time)

IPSC ( the world body ) has a revo div. LEAVE IT BE !!

IF IT AINT BROKE DONT F%#K WITH IT !!!

I dont see a problem here.

Like i said . Did i miss something ????

[Wakal]

Yep, you missed the fact that a maximum of 20 people (going back over the last six years) were shooting Revolver at the Nationals.

Annoy Smith and Weasel? Well, hmmm...I think the .356 TSW fiasco already did that, in the most official USPSA fashion possible, some years ago. No sponsorship? Bummer. I guess we will just have to shoot without the bling bling, you know, for the fun of friendly competition...

This sport shouldn't be about the bling.

It should be about competition. Heads-up was just fine for a rather long time, until the desire for bling-bling and tzotchkes resulted in Open and Limited and continued through Revolver, Production, Single Stack (but NOT P220 or P38), and The Clinton/Sara Brady Memorial Limited-10 Divisions. The pendulum has passed the balance point with five (six!) Divisions. Three, while still not heads-up, is much more manageable. Open, Limited, Production...perhaps with recognition for "top Open revolver" or some such similiar sub (to the three divisions).

After all, we really shouldn't care if a competitor is the "Top red-headed left-handed handicapped minority practicioner-of-an-obscure-religion holder-of-a-strange-job using a seven-shot Muddleworper-2000 in a plastic (not metal) holster on the Tuesday following the second Monday of the fourth month in a year with two zeros". There is the match winner, and then there is everyone else.

Leave the bling and tzotchkes for the kiddies.

Lets compete for the sake of friendly competition.

Alex

[Carmoney]

Alex, I hear what you're saying about the whole thing getting spread too thin, but in my opinion we should keep all reasonable equipment divisions until the ridiculous class system is killed off. (1st D? 2nd C? Gimme a friggin' break.)

[michaels]

OK, it's time to dig up Mr. V's email address out of Front Sight and let him know that the wheel gun is not dead...

Instead of cutting out classes, revolver should be opened up with one more sub division, a place for the 627x8 people to play. Instead of being dumped in with bottom feeders, give us our own place. If not, let us play in the new single stack division, a one round disadvantage is better than the current 3/2 round you get in L-10....

The last 2 new shooters that want to come into our club are both starting with a revolver, in fact, one of our senior revolver shooters (glock boy) donated a complete holster/speed loader setup to the last guy that wants to come out and play. When was the last time a bottom feeding brass spreader ever did that?

Yup, lets get those cards and letters in the (e)mail to Sedro Wolley and tell them what we want, it's our club....

mike sousa

[dajarrel]

If one wishes to go back to pure "heads up" competition, one would need to go back to the original handguns. Singlestacks and Revolvers. No Foo-Foo guns, no widebodies, no "gotta be on the list" guns.

JMHO, FWIW

dj

Edited November 7, 2005 by dajarrel

[JohnRodriguez]

What do you mean "it's not about the bling". Have you ever seen how many $3000+ open guns and $2000+ limited guns there are out there??? How about the fact that about 75% of the people shooting those guns are perfectly happy shooting C's and D's with them, and they think its ok. Maybe the divisons could be spread out by requiring that you shoot a minimun requirement, and if you don't meet it, than you get bumped to a "lower" division, to learn things like aiming and trigger contol and stage stratagy and keeping track of your shoots, etc.

[Wakal]

Carmoney: Good point

Definitions:

Bling-bling: Prize table goodies.

Tzotchkes: Plaques, trophies, and the like.

And for the high-dollar-gun straw man sidebar: Anyone with dough can buy a full-up racegun. Anyone with friends (with dough) can borrow a racegun. But anyone can't just show up and shoot a racegun well without some practice. And now we return to the discussion

Alex

[Airedale]

Hoppy,

Was the little bird one of the voices in your head?

Keep revolver.

If we follow Wakal's plan then let's just shoot heads up all together. There will simply be 1st through whatever. Open guns will rule and match participation will drop and USPSA will eventually puke. MD job will be easier though. Hey! While were at it let's say anything that punches through the cardboard makes major! (Sorry-thread drift)

Dave

And since we can't edit right now, let me add, I couldn't care less about the number of wheelguns at the Nationals. I shoot local and Area matches every weekend.

I won't use vacation time to shoot the Nationals. I use my vacation time to chase the deadly pheasant in Iowa.

Carmoney-I'm headed your way next Saturday-you will be safe from vicious pheasant strikes for a week at least

Dave