Revolver Divisions Future In Uspsa

[pskys2]

Mike, announcing in advance a straight % per division is an interesting and fresh approach that may work in the short term. Actually encoraging "Gaming", novel and interesting concept, talk your guys into doing that at their '06 Sectional.

Bgary, try this on;

Open: Anything goes, drag it up and it works.

Limited: No Comps or Scopes.

Production: 6 shot limits in firearm to start and in mags or cylinders, Major/Minor, Production Quotas, limited modifications and "ALL" types eligible.

Production was originally intended as a "Newbie" division, though I never believed it would stay that. But, if you now want to streamline the divisions why eliminate SA autos from the division anymore? Where is it written that you can't beat a SA Auto with a Safe Action? Sure it may be harder for the average guy, but heck some are saying Revolvers should compete against Safe Action Production Autos.

Personally I'd like to see Open, Limited, Production (with Major/Minor and SA 1911 Autos allowed) and Revolver. Those 4 divisions seem to cover about every firearm type equitably, except SA Revolvers and I don't have a clue what to say about them.

Though in 1978 all I had was a Ruger .45 Blackhawk and I was tempted to shoot a combat match with it, spent a few nights trying to figure out how to speed load a Blackhawk with a 1911 mag (really with a .45acp cylinder I did try it). I still had dreams (nightmares?) of doing it for kicks in the 1980's while waiting on a gunsmith, but was saved by local Cowboy Combat Matches (pre-SASS). Hey, I was young and poor and didn't have any spare guns.

Oh, for the simple old days, when we had so few choices. A hi cap was a minor caliber Hi-Power and Revolver shooters were new guys easily beat, we had few moving targets and heck many a match was just a track meet.

Really, it's not perfect but it's better now than ever.

Dave

P.S. My AD also said there's been no official talk of this, so that makes 3 AD's Hop, and Val from USPSA said they hadn't heard of anything either. But, it never hurts to make the wheel squeak a bit either.

[Kimberkid]

Since everyone is so intent on changing something, I am all for the idea of eliminating prizes. Or at least lets random draw them. Besides, it is all about the friendly competition, right???

Isnt there a specific forum rule about trashing this division over that division?

Yea, lets all shoot heads up, no classes. Great idea, great way to encourage new shooters. Some people have to accept that USPSA isnt a lifestyle for everyone, some people shoot their match or 2 a month and dont go crazy like some of us do, they wont spend extra money on it, they'll just quit.

Yea, lets kill revolver and do a straight kick to the nuts of history. Since damn near all of us owned/shot/grew up on a revolver somewhere, and it sparked our growth as shooters, lets elimnate that division that if kept, would cost no one anything extra.

Here's an idea, since we gotta end 1 division, lets pick 1 shooter from each division and they can all go out back and have a fist fight. Whoever comes in last, their division gets cut. I pick Jerry "Tree Trunk Forearms" Miculek for Revo, and Dave "Ex Hockey Player" Sevigny for Production since those are the 2 I care most about.

Leave everything alone and just shoot.

[hdgun]

+1 on that. DON"T FIX IT IF IT AINT BROKE

[AustinMike]

There's things we can all do to promote Revolver shooting and get more people interested. One thing that came to mind this morning is that Shooting USA has done some great work covering Jerry's world record shooting and the IRC. I was watching some shows I recorded over over the weekend and I'm chomping at the bit to get my 625 back from the gunsmith now! I'm going to write in and thank them for putting revolvers in the spotlight and request more coverage next year.

[Carmoney]

If USPSA would implement the "execute the guy who finishes last" rule and the divisional fistfight showdown, both of which have been proposed here, we might just have ourselves a sport with enough mass spectator appeal to make it on ESPN and attract real corporate sponsors!

[Kimberkid]

then we can get reality shows like "The Ultimate Shooter" or maybe "Ballistic Island"

[SRT Driver]

But, if you now want to streamline the divisions why eliminate SA autos from the division anymore? Where is it written that you can't beat a SA Auto with a Safe Action? Sure it may be harder for the average guy, but heck some are saying Revolvers should compete against Safe Action Production Autos.

SA auto have their own divisions Ltd, L10, Single stack, and Open. Sure a Glock shooter can compete with a SA shooter..in L10 or Limited. Leave Production alone!!! It's fine the way it is.

Revos have their place too. Heck, I shot my first USPSA match with an M14 and 148 Gr Wadcutters. Fun..sure. Leave that alone too.

Bring your toys and shoot where you want. If you want to show up with a Revo and shoot Production..fine. Or Ltd or Open. Just leave your ego at the door when you do and have fun.

[bgary]

Yea, lets kill revolver and do a straight kick to the nuts of history.

Just a quick note on the subject of history.... at least as it relates to a revolver division withiin USPSA.

"In the Beginning" there was only one division. Run what you brung. The compeition was pure heads-up for the first 20-ish years of the game, even after dots and comps became common. Revolver was not its own division, but it was a "category" that you could "tag" in EZ-Score or MSS.

In around 1994, the Limited division was created, and (I think) the first Limited Nationals was held in 1995. Again, there was no separate division for Revolver, it was still a "category", which allowed for Open Revolver and Limited Revolver.

In 2001, when the red rulebook went into effect, it brought in 3 new divisions (Lim-10, Prod and Revolver). Notably, there was a lot of controversy when Revolver division was created because the decision was made (first by IPSC, subsequently by USPSA) to make revolver a 6-round division, so all the guys who had been shooting 8-rounders in Limited division screamed. Some argued - loudly - that they would rather have revolver stay a competitive subset of limited than have "crippled" competition in a 6-round division of their own.

So.... those who are saying "to throw out revolver division would be throwing out our history"... nope, we'd be going back to it. In fact, if we wanted to *really* go back to our roots, we'd put everyone in one division, run what you brung, and revolver... would *not* be its own division. If we wanted to go back to the division alignment we had during USPSA's period of greatest growth, we should go back to Open and Limited, and revolver... would not be its own division.

Not advocating either path, just paying homage to history.

I would note, though, that our current alignment is actually the *most* restrictive for revolver that we've ever had. There's no competitive venue for Open revolvers, there's no competitive venue for 8-round revolver, etc.

Bruce

[357454]

Received the following from Bruce Gary our regional director

No, there's no truth to the rumor that Revolver

Division is going to be discontinued. Every once

in a while there is discussion about whether or

not we have too many divisions, and those that

think we do look at Revolver, because it has the

lowest participation of any of the divisions, and

we start looking at ways to make things less

complicated for match directors to run. But...

there is no active effort to drop Revolver... and I

don't think there will be any changes at all

to the divisions anytime soon.

Bruce

Perhaps I'm not wasting my time and money building a 625 6 1/2"

357454

[Kimberkid]

Bruce,

When I said it was a nutshot to our history I didnt mean USPSA/IPSC history. What I meant is that I am sure many of us got started shooting with "daddy's danged old revolver" and the things we loved about shooting, that sparked our interest started there. This was at least my personal story, learning most of what I know about general shooting on a beat up, 3rd hand S&W 19 that was my fathers. I would imagine that a lot of us got started the same way. To eliminate Revo division (which it looks as if may NOT be the case) would effectivly eradicate a style of gun (and shooting) that has given so much to so many of us.

[pskys2]

Personally I don't like Reality Shows, my life has enough Reality as it is.

Further, I enjoy shooting. Whatever the venue. USPSA just has more of a rush involved. I can always find somebodies Butt to Kick (MY OWN!) That's who I really want to beat each and every time I shoot. It just seems my evil conscious twin usually wins out. But then if he didn't I would never feel the desire to practice. And heck that's half the fun.

Maybe we all need to step back, take a deep breath and, for those of us in the US, thank the lord that we live in a country where we Still Can Shoot Anything (pretty much) we want! And just about at any time.

It doesn't look like there is any official move to dissolve Revolver Division and I like having many divisions, classes and categories. Prizes are ok whether by drawing or place, but placques are great too. As long as I can shoot and have fun I don't care.

Maybe a new thread on ideas to increase Revolver interest would be in order?

The best way to insure the Revolver Division is to get interest up.

Dave

[LPatterson]

"UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL"

Those words were important then and they have even more meaning today with the gun banners trying to split us by going after a type of gun at a time.

If it had not been for The Assualt Weapons ban would USPSA have thought up the idea of starting a Production or Limited 10 division. I think not. By starting new divisions USPSA created a way for shooters to continue to support a sport that they enjoy. If we start fighting amongst ourselves about whether or not to support a specific type of pistol then we are playing into the hands of the gunbanners.

We have several states that still have 10 round limits for pistols, some states have 3-5 round limits for hunting rifles, the Federal Government has a 3 shot limit for migratory wildfowl. Does that mean we should change 3 gun rules to match the dictates of something we are not doing, namely hunting.

If we do not continue to support each others choice of the gun they would like to compete with then we might lose the choice that we have.

[Mooney]

I would hate to see us lose our division, but WOULD like to see "overall placement" for the major matches posted in the results. It's always fun to try to improve on things, and beating up bottom feeders with wheelies is fun. I will probably never have the "privelege" (sp?) of owning a race-type gun, and may never even bother getting a high-cap. My personal finances just don't allow for it now. Maybe in the future, but probably not. I can, and I will always have my revos though.

I am lucky enough to shoot regularly with an area director (practice and matches) and have not heard about any pending division elimination. I think that I would have, especially since myself and others are trying to drum up a bit more interest up here in the NE.

What we do have for our local matches (as I am usually one of 2 or 3 revolver shooters, if any others can make it) is overall placement. I don't know if this is the same for any other areas, but in the NE it is fun to see how you do overall. Sure, I can "win" my division by just showing up some weekends, but I prefer to see how I do altogether, along with how I do within my division. I know, I shouldn't let the score and performance of others drive me - I DO shoot for myself, but still find it fun to see how I did after the match.

Now, as that pertains to the comments regarding the division's elimination: PLEASE-Don't mess with it. It works for now. I like to see how my classifier scores improve with practice (as do others I know).

Prizes can be handed out any way, IMHO. I don't care if I win anything. Sure, some sort of recognition for being "the best that showed up today" is cool, but I find that is second to being there, throwing lead downrange, and spending good times with good people. If fairness in prize structure/ formal recognition is your thing; then perhaps random draw everything; perhaps hold some things back for division winners; and trophies for division winners.

I don't think there needs to be "rewarded" recognition for each class winner. As stated earlier, it encourages gaming the classes. Reward the Overalls, and leave it be. High Junior should be recognized especially...kids talking about the cool shooting they did last weekend, and the trophy/ plaque/ ribbon to back it up? Sweet. I am also lucky enough to shoot with a junior or two from time to time. Up here in PC land, it's hard to get adults to accept that I shoot on weekends- let alone that children do as well. I always try to explain to them that safety is first and key. It's great to try to keep up with the kids too. One of our Juniors went to the AWARE match with us- he had a really good time, and has been improving steadily. He talks about his shooting with others at school, and has drummed up some interest. JUNIORS are the future- reward them too.

My $.02 (which ran longer than I thought it would, and drifted about recklessly)

GJG

[Carlos]

Kimberkid wrote: "Since everyone is so intent on changing something, I am all for the idea of eliminating prizes. Or at least lets random draw them. Besides, it is all about the friendly competition, right??? "

-thats a sensible suggestion by Kimberkid & I agree w/ him.

I also agree w/ GreyWolf's comments on L10/Production being the product of the AWB and lets not forget -

THE ASSAULT WEAPON BAN/MAGAZINE BAN IS STILL IN EFFECT

What's that you say? Didn't it expire?

Not the State versions that have effects on magazine capacity in CA, NY, and MD as well as NJ & several other states.

The State AWB provisions vary, but in general folks from those states can't simply call up STI & have them send a bigstick to their house. Maybe some folks have found a way around that; maybe some folks don't want to look for loopholes or interpret things differently. Fact is, L10 and Production have legitimate places in every state but especially in AWB states.

It might be tempting for guys like me (VA resident) to just write those USPSA shooters off when changing the rules, but the USPSA members in those states have rights equal to mine & they deserve full consideration. When proposing rule changes (here or elsewhere) please take them into account in figuring the effect of the proposed rule.

Regards,

D.C. Johnson

PS - Dave wrote: "Maybe a new thread on ideas to increase Revolver interest would be in order?The best way to insure the Revolver Division is to get interest up."

Here here! Agreed.

[Chuck D]

Carlos... Thank you VERY much for standing up for the shooters in "Capacity Restricted" States. Your support is welcomed from this Upstate New Yorker.

What worries me is the "immediate future" quote that follows the "we're not looking at eliminating anything" statement. The push is on for solidifying the SS Division (making it permanent) and if this is to happen...the outcry for "something has to go" will be deafening in certain circles. It in *my* opinion will be L10 but it could be Revolver. It's a real possibility.

One thing that astounds me is the constant *crying* about too many Divisions and the "need" to provide tooo many awards. Nothing is said about the creation of a dual Nationals that allow a shooter to "cherry pick" two seperate National Titles. Realistically you could (and you HAVE had in the past) a National Champ in two Seperate Divisions that just happened to be the same person. If we eliminate L10 for example...the Cherry Picking will continue with someone having the possibility of becoming Limited and SS Division National Champ while someone like myself will have L10 torn away from me simply because "there's too many Divisions."

If (and I say if because I believe if you polled the members of USPSA, you'd find little support for elimination of ANY Division) USPSA eliminates a viable (and I believe they ALL are viable) Division....it would make it amazingly easier to tell Sedro Woolley "No Thanks" when membership renewal time comes and go spend my money and time somewhere else.

Wheelgun guys and gals can start up or participate in existing programs like ICORE, NRA Action Pistol or IDPA and never spend a dime with USPSA. Likewise for shooters happy with L10 Division.

It's a consumer driven game...something it would be wise for everyone to realize...especially the "screw everything but Open and Limited Division" proponents.

[MBaneACP]

Silly Wabbits!

I've had a couple of glasses of a reasonably good pinot (Coppola Director's Reserve, FWIW) , so I probably shouldn't post. When, however, has that ever stopped me???

It has been interesting, these last couple of years without dealing with USPSA. I remain surprised at how many in Gun World couldn't tell you three of the five words that make up USPSA. People might know TGO or Todd or Jerry, but they really don't have any idea about the baseline sport. Conversely, after a coupel of years on the road, it's equally apparent that the Powers That Be in USPSA are not necessariy on top of things out here in the real world.

Revolvers are a good example...there's a renaissance going on in revolvers. That's because the market as a whole is a bit tired of black plastic guns and Stealthy Ninja Killer Types, certainly no disrespect to either. I base my thought on sales figures, BTW. It's important to me to know stuff like that, because every week I get a "report card," a.k.a. Neilsen numbers, on how well I did that week. I can probably survive a week or two dip in numbers, but that's about it. Consequently, I spend a lot of time trying to figure out where the market is going.

I like Revolvers; I like Production; I like Single Stack, because that's what my audience wants to see and that's where the market is going.

My $0.02 worth.

Michael B

[et45]

OPEN as is,SINGLE STACK and DOUBLE STACK with no comps,ports or optics and Revolver.That is four divisions.In the states where mag capacity is restricted hold them to 10 rds ,for the rest of us load em up.Just my 2cts on the issue