Not pasting at matches

[Kraj]

I've been hearing a lot about this lately on uspsa podcasts. Matches where the shooters don't reset and match staff do it all. As a shooter im sure everyone is all for it, im more interested in what people that regularly work matches think about it. Would this make you more likely or less likely to volunteer? 


 

[IVC]

If you want staff to reset everything, the entry fee will be higher. 

 

There are many threads about this. The latest one I saw had a good comment, along the lines of "if you go to a takeout food joint and expect the service of a sit-down restaurant you are going to be disappointed." Full service comes at a price. 

[WFargo]

Within IPSC it's the only way we do it. ( In my case the Netherlands, but it's the same everywhere)

The club that arranges the match 'supplies' the most volunteers for pasting and resetting. (these volunteers usually shoot the prematch) and the RO's / officials are arranged via their organisation (NROI) and they usually shoot the pre match as well. 

Very simple, and match fee is set at max of € 30,-     

I really don't see why this is so difficult to arrange for you guys in the US..... 

 

EDIT: 

I just realised that here in the Netherlands a club might only organise a few matches per year. Then it's easy to arrange volunteers and officials...

If a club actually arranges a match every weekend, like some of you guys actually do... it will be come a whole different story, getting sufficient volunteers every week.....

So yeah... I understand it's difficult to arrange staff to reset, if you need them on a weekly or even a monthly basis...

Edited October 28, 2020 by WFargo

[Racinready300ex]

The biggest thing I think is it will take more staff per stage. Not as many as you think, the crew on a stage should be able to get into a rhythm with each person having a specific job. This can turn shooters over vary quickly. I worked a match once where a crew put a hard cover target in the wrong place when changing targets. We sent some extra staff there and reshot two squads at lunch. It was amazing how fast we could turn shooters around. All I had to do was reset two steel and paste one target. In the time it took me to do that the whole stage was reset and the next shooter was getting MR command. 

 

Extra staff means more hotels and food, probably the biggest expense of a match. Unless you have a lot of locals willing to work. This would be a pretty big change and most people resist change. Probably why we see talk of this, but it doesn't happen.

 

Another idea I've heard is just having the last 2 or 3 shooters in the stack reset the stage themselves. This way everyone only has to reset each stage 2 or 3 times. I could see this working and being just as fast over the course of the day but you'd end up working a lot less overall.

[gunshrink]

I am both amazed and feeling lucky that this is a problem some places. At our club matches that go weekly from late April to mid October we have three or four out of five squads that usually shoot together and all share the work. We have a set-up team that comes in three hours early and does that work and thus gets to shoot for half price. That is about 6-10 individuals. In the match we have 2-4 RO’s on the squad and they do that work. Score keepers the same. The rest paste and reset - just what we do with sometimes people racing others to paste first. Even in area and sectionals matches staff do the RO and tablet but the squad pastes and if possible resets. Just the way we do it and I guess I didn’t think it was any different. On really hot days the Super Seniors are given a pass if they want it but that is it. Should not really be that big a deal - help out, shoot and have fun. 

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, gunshrink said:

I am both amazed and feeling lucky that this is a problem some places. At our club matches that go weekly from late April to mid October we have three or four out of five squads that usually shoot together and all share the work. We have a set-up team that comes in three hours early and does that work and thus gets to shoot for half price. That is about 6-10 individuals. In the match we have 2-4 RO’s on the squad and they do that work. Score keepers the same. The rest paste and reset - just what we do with sometimes people racing others to paste first. Even in area and sectionals matches staff do the RO and tablet but the squad pastes and if possible resets. Just the way we do it and I guess I didn’t think it was any different. On really hot days the Super Seniors are given a pass if they want it but that is it. Should not really be that big a deal - help out, shoot and have fun. 

 

I just assume we are talking about major matches and not club matches. I don't really see how clubs could put on monthly level 1's and not do it basically like your club does. Now for majors, what you are describing is exactly how every major I've ever shot has been run. Doesn't mean it's the best or only way.

 

Here's one case you could make for staff reset. Have you ever kept track of your steps at a match? The highest I've hit was a little over 22k steps at a Area match shot in one day. That's about 11 miles. Have you ever shot a match squaded with someone who doesn't really reset? They are off talking, or cleaning mags, in the bathroom what ever they just always seem to be to busy to help. I have, and I try not to squad with them but that doesn't fix the problem. Even if I don't squad with them at the end of the day I shot the match and walked 8-10 miles and they may have shot the match and walked 4-5 or less, who do you think has more gas in the tank on the last stage of the day? 

 

Have you even went to reset a stage and someone else pastes every target before you get there? That's a waste of time and energy but at least you look busy so no one yells at you for not helping. 8 guys walking down and each pasting 1 or 2 targets really isn't efficient. This is where staff resetting can actually be faster even with less people because there is less wasted time. No wondering around looking for something to do. No trying to find the paint, or how to reset the swinger etc. 

 

Have you ever reset the same targets on a stage for the first 8 shooters and get in a rhythm, then when you're on deck you don't reset. No one thinks to check because they've been reset every other time. Boom shooter gets a reshoot because the stage wasn't reset.  How often does that happen in a 4 day match with 500 shooters? Having the same guys reset could eliminate this.

 

Ever get a reshoot because someone reset the activator incorrectly? You get the idea.

 

The draw back obviously is you need more man power and possible more $$ to pull it off. I don't think staff reset will become common in the states.

[rowdyb]

I don't work matches but if I was a shooter at a match and I didn't have to tape ever, not just splitting shooting and working duties, I would expect the match fee to be higher so that those working the match could actually get paid for their work.

 

That level of price increase might price some people out of majors. That level of remuneration for working the match might draw better people to the job. I can accept both.

[MikeyScuba]

I like staying busy patching and re-setting. Especially since I'm always 1st on stage 2 and then last on stage 3 I'd get lazy and slow if I didn't have something to do for those 45+ minutes.

[ChuckS]

9 hours ago, Kraj said:

I've been hearing a lot about this lately on uspsa podcasts. Matches where the shooters don't reset and match staff do it all. As a shooter im sure everyone is all for it, im more interested in what people that regularly work matches think about it. Would this make you more likely or less likely to volunteer? 


 

I had a really long answer to this question but I decided to omit it. Short answer: less likely to volunteer if no crew is added. 

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

Have you ever shot a match squaded with someone who doesn't really reset? They are off talking, or cleaning mags, in the bathroom what ever they just always seem to be to busy to help. I have, and I try not to squad with them but that doesn't fix the problem. Even if I don't squad with them at the end of the day I shot the match and walked 8-10 miles and they may have shot the match and walked 4-5 or less, who do you think has more gas in the tank on the last stage of the day? 

 

 

i would expect the person who is in better shape will have more gas in the tank on the last stage of the day. Usually that is me, even tho just like Matt Hopkins I typically run out to the furthest targets and poppers.

 

Quote

Ever get a reshoot because someone reset the activator incorrectly? You get the idea.

this really is a thing, and oftentimes the staff will reset a particularly sensitive moving target. When I have worked  nationals and area matches, we *always* check the movers to make sure they are reset properly, every single shooter.

 

I personally would not pay more to avoid resetting, and in fact, I would prefer to be involved in reset even for the same price. It helps keep the blood flowing, and my head in the game, and gives me an opportunity to see more of the stage from different angles.

[Jim Watson]

The only shooting I have done with staff resetting was  BPCR Metallic Silhouette.  Teenagers hired to roar down the 500 meter range on 4 wheelers and reset steel critters.  Got to going to a range where we had to reset our own, which got to feeling like work.

 

A friend just got back from the IDPA Southern Belle ladies only match.  She said the male SOs did all the resetting of mechanicals and part of the pasting, but she did some pasting.

[Racinready300ex]

4 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

i would expect the person who is in better shape will have more gas in the tank on the last stage of the day. Usually that is me, even tho just like Matt Hopkins I typically run out to the furthest targets and poppers.

 

 

You may not concerned with getting tired during a long match but it is a thing. I'm not in bad shape but I still try to conserve energy where I can. 12-13 stages in one day in Aug with temps over hundred can wear on you no matter how fit you are. Jason Bourne said "rest is a weapon"...someone probably said that in real life too, I don't know. 

[MikeyScuba]

52 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

i would expect the person who is in better shape will have more gas in the tank on the last stage of the day. Usually that is me, even tho just like Matt Hopkins I typically run out to the furthest targets and poppers.

 

this really is a thing, and oftentimes the staff will reset a particularly sensitive moving target. When I have worked  nationals and area matches, we *always* check the movers to make sure they are reset properly, every single shooter.

 

 

Shot a match in upstate NY last year with a really bad activator for a swinger.  I figured out how to set it and make it work.  Of course when it's time for me to shoot it won't activate.  Like take 4 and it finally activated.  Didn't mind as this was the 2nd swinger and the stage was a mirror image so by take 4 I was "on" the timing and got all alphas.

[rowdyb]

1 hour ago, ChuckS said:

I had a really long answer to this question but I decided to omit it. Short answer: less likely to volunteer if no crew is added. 

Yep, why volunteer to be a match slave for what? A free shirt, box lunch and $100? And likely not shoot the match?

 

What I think would be an unintended consequence would be the development of an even greater divide between officiants and competitors. And that difference will likely only create problems, most likely to an increase in the "us versus them" mentality.

 

Some deeper questions need to be asked about motivations and why things are the way they are.

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, rowdyb said:

Yep, why volunteer to be a match slave for what? A free shirt, box lunch and $100? And likely not shoot the match?

 

 

Do you see the staff as your slave? Or there to serve you?

 

The matches I've worked the MD went above and beyond to take care of his crew. 

[Kraj]

7 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Do you see the staff as your slave? Or there to serve you?

 

The matches I've worked the MD went above and beyond to take care of his crew. 

I don't think that's what he meant. Every match I have worked the MD did everything they could to take care of staff, there are plenty of places I would be happy to volunteer to run stages for again. 

 

But by the time I pay for

-half a hotel room (that for sectional matches I wouldn't need if I wasn't working the match) 

- meals in restaurants (meals I'm not eating at home because I'm out of town to work the match) 

 

Most of the time it would be cheaper for me to not work the match before I use extra vacation days to RO. 

 

If we are going to start charging more for matches more staff to reset isn't where I would put the money. 

 

I've never worked a nationals but I don't think these issues go away then, please correct me if I'm wrong

[rowdyb]

11 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

your slave

hyperbole to say that working a match is a service position with no good pay, no benefits, and so on.

[JFlowers]

SC State has always been a Staff Reset Match.  I have worked it as staff, as an RO, and as a CRO.  Staff usually consists of two groups.  USPSA members, typically locals, who work and get the match fee waived or local range club members who work to get a Work Day credit for the club.  For the CRO/RO it works well, after the first couple of shooters, you and the team have a pattern down and you score and work the stage the same way the entire match.  Patch/Reset knows which way you are scoring so they know when you will be at various target arrays, etc.

 

Most matches do a good job of taking care of staff.  Don't and staff doesn't come back and work the match again.  Sure, you won't make a living as match staff, but it can be a fun way to attend, shoot, and work a match.

 

And yes, you will get in a lot of steps!

[ts199982]

I hope the direction is not this way but have seen it on a few stages the last few regional matches we attended. They were volunteer groups like BSA that was working and helping out on with reset on a single stage, maybe the RO was involved in Scouts? We acknowledged them and appreciated the break for that stage.

[C-Money]

21 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Yep, why volunteer to be a match slave for what? A free shirt, box lunch and $100? And likely not shoot the match?

 

What I think would be an unintended consequence would be the development of an even greater divide between officiants and competitors. And that difference will likely only create problems, most likely to an increase in the "us versus them" mentality.

 

Some deeper questions need to be asked about motivations and why things are the way they are.

 

I absolutely agree with you that having competitors not participate in stage reset would lead to an "us vs. them" situation. I've been to a big IPSC match where there was staff reset, and while I get why they do it, I saw the most entitled, elitist competitors I hope I ever see. It was necessary to have staff reset for consistency, efficiency and because honestly a lot of people would cheat. 

 

We have no idea how good we have it in the USA, and a big part of that is how our democratic and egalitarian ideals permeate society. USPSA being a volunteer-based amateur hobby (I hate calling it a sport) is one of its strengths. People who only take, who have a merely transactional view of matches and the organization are missing out on full participation. The idea of USPSA is that it is oneself against a challenge. It isn't a fight for a prize but a quest for self-improvement. Part of that is in helping others in their own journey, and a tiny portion of that is resetting stages at matches. 

 

Staff reset is rare because it takes more staff and asks a lot more of the staff. The recent Georgia state match (2020) had full staff reset but the staff had very generous compensation. The nationals matches have some of the best staff packages but would never work if that staff had to reset for three days. Staff already has to do a lot of labor with scoring targets, running shooters, changing targets, and also has to get there early and stay later than competitors. The really big problem with staff reset at Nationals would be the available pool of ROs. Many arent in the best of shape, and what would happen is they would be even more sidelined into stages which are static. You would lose a lot of the variety of stages because staff reset limitations and convenience would be a factor.

 

What could be done is to have a better system of reset duties per squad, like having the three shooters who are pre-"in the hole" do the reset. Or every squad could be like the Super Squad and just go out there and do the reset without bitching. I only had to yell at one squad on my stage at Race Gun Nationals to paste, and none at Classic Nationals. So to my mind the system seems to be working. I for one am not shy about calling out someone on my squad who isn't resetting, because I don't want to do all the reset myself. If reset works so well at Nationals, why does it seem to be such a bigger problem at lower level matches? That seems to be a way bigger problem.

[Bill Nesbitt]

23 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 Have you ever shot a match squaded with someone who doesn't really reset? They are off talking, or cleaning mags, in the bathroom what ever they just always seem to be to busy to help. I have,

In the early days of IDPA, i seemed to get squaded at the Nationals several years with a guy who would not help reset at all. You could hand him some pasters and he would drop them to the ground.   He always won the Division.

 

 

[BoyGlock]

Is this pasting resetting also true in Europe? Even in level 3s? We in the Philippines has a crew in each stage that does all those things including brassing. All you have to do is shoot and leave w/ your brass in a plastic bag. Even in level 1s. Think if we are asked or obliged to do those works, a lot of us wont shoot the match. Of course labor here is cheap. But you are much richer shooters than us and all the guns and gears are also much cheaper than ours. Its far more relaxing and focused to shoot w/o those extra works I guess. 
 

a bit off topic i apologize, just curious

Edited October 29, 2020 by BoyGlock

[Racinready300ex]

47 minutes ago, Bill Nesbitt said:

In the early days of IDPA, i seemed to get squaded at the Nationals several years with a guy who would not help reset at all. You could hand him some pasters and he would drop them to the ground.   He always won the Division.

 

 

 

Wow, that's....well I probably can't say what that is on here. I've never seen it that bad, but I've seen pretty bad. 

[Racinready300ex]

28 minutes ago, BoyGlock said:

Is this pasting resetting also true in Europe? Even in level 3s? We in the Philippines has a crew in each stage that does all those things including brassing. All you have to do is shoot and leave w/ your brass in a plastic bag. Even in level 1s. Think if we are asked or obliged to do those works, a lot of us wont shoot the match. Of course labor here is cheap. But you are much richer shooters than us and all the guns and gears are also much cheaper than ours. Its far more relaxing and focused to shoot w/o those extra works I guess. 
 

a bit off topic i apologize, just curious

 

My understanding is most of IPSC is that way, it seems like we're the only ones resetting during the match. Doesn't mean we're not doing it right. Some of that could be due to IPSC rules not allowing you on the stage prior to your official walk through. 

 

It's also my understanding that in a lot of countries there is much stricter regulations on firearm owners and only the more upper class can afford to play this game. Here in the states with guns, ammo and gear being less expensive and easier to obtain our average shooter probably isn't as rich as you might think.

 

I have not shot in any other countries so I don't know that this is accurate, but it seems reasonable. 

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, Twinkie said:

 

I absolutely agree with you that having competitors not participate in stage reset would lead to an "us vs. them" situation. I've been to a big IPSC match where there was staff reset, and while I get why they do it, I saw the most entitled, elitist competitors I hope I ever see. It was necessary to have staff reset for consistency, efficiency and because honestly a lot of people would cheat. 

 

We have no idea how good we have it in the USA, and a big part of that is how our democratic and egalitarian ideals permeate society. USPSA being a volunteer-based amateur hobby (I hate calling it a sport) is one of its strengths. People who only take, who have a merely transactional view of matches and the organization are missing out on full participation. The idea of USPSA is that it is oneself against a challenge. It isn't a fight for a prize but a quest for self-improvement. Part of that is in helping others in their own journey, and a tiny portion of that is resetting stages at matches. 

 

Staff reset is rare because it takes more staff and asks a lot more of the staff. The recent Georgia state match (2020) had full staff reset but the staff had very generous compensation. The nationals matches have some of the best staff packages but would never work if that staff had to reset for three days. Staff already has to do a lot of labor with scoring targets, running shooters, changing targets, and also has to get there early and stay later than competitors. The really big problem with staff reset at Nationals would be the available pool of ROs. Many arent in the best of shape, and what would happen is they would be even more sidelined into stages which are static. You would lose a lot of the variety of stages because staff reset limitations and convenience would be a factor.

 

What could be done is to have a better system of reset duties per squad, like having the three shooters who are pre-"in the hole" do the reset. Or every squad could be like the Super Squad and just go out there and do the reset without bitching. I only had to yell at one squad on my stage at Race Gun Nationals to paste, and none at Classic Nationals. So to my mind the system seems to be working. I for one am not shy about calling out someone on my squad who isn't resetting, because I don't want to do all the reset myself. If reset works so well at Nationals, why does it seem to be such a bigger problem at lower level matches? That seems to be a way bigger problem.

 

I think something like this could be a improvement, I'm just not sure how we could ever move from what we do to something like that at this point.