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Not pasting at matches


Kraj

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2 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I think something like this could be a improvement, I'm just not sure how we could ever move from what we do to something like that at this point. 

 

Could penalties be applied?  Say if the MD/RM announced it at the shooters meeting, idk.  I am not one for thinking up ways to hand out penalties, but damn i hate it when people don't tape.  I have almost been in fights over that s#!t.  I think a system where the 3 pre on deck shooters tape or something to that effect would be very efficient.   It could also help with when you tape the same 4 targets for every shooter and then when it is your turn to shoot those targets are not taped.  As it stands now i try to squad with people I know tape, it seems the best option available at this time

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1 hour ago, RJH said:

 

Could penalties be applied?  Say if the MD/RM announced it at the shooters meeting, idk.  I am not one for thinking up ways to hand out penalties, but damn i hate it when people don't tape.  I have almost been in fights over that s#!t.  I think a system where the 3 pre on deck shooters tape or something to that effect would be very efficient.   It could also help with when you tape the same 4 targets for every shooter and then when it is your turn to shoot those targets are not taped.  As it stands now i try to squad with people I know tape, it seems the best option available at this time

 

I shot in a squad once with two junior shooters their dad and a super squadder. The juniors where constantly asking the SS dude questions so those three weren't pasting, dad wasn't much help either, then you have a shooter on deck, one shooting and one in the whole trying not to do reset. That's 7-8 people of our 10 man squad. Talk about a frustrating day. 

 

But, I don't think there is anything in the rules that allows for PE's for not resetting. 

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A system of "pre-on deck shooters" (PODs maybe?) pasting would work except for bathroom breaks or other emergencies. It could be tracked simply on competitor cards like they use in IPSC but then people would game how many times they could get away with not pasting, save it to the end, etc. 

 

I would be willing to try the idea, but it honestly sounds like herding cats and way too legalistic to be popular. Like I said, though, I'd be willing to try it.

 

Squads of say 10 could be:

 

Shooter

On Deck

In the Hole

Paster

Paster

Paster

Free

Free

Free

Free

 

Adjust based on squad sizes. I think ideal squad sizes are around 12, so maybe 4 pasters (so one could be That Guy who pastes the 2 closest targets and sits down). The difficulty is tiny shooter brains and having to now keep up with a new requirement of when to start and stop pasting.

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8 minutes ago, Twinkie said:

A system of "pre-on deck shooters" (PODs maybe?) pasting would work except for bathroom breaks or other emergencies. It could be tracked simply on competitor cards like they use in IPSC but then people would game how many times they could get away with not pasting, save it to the end, etc. 

 

I would be willing to try the idea, but it honestly sounds like herding cats and way too legalistic to be popular. Like I said, though, I'd be willing to try it.

 

Squads of say 10 could be:

 

Shooter

On Deck

In the Hole

Paster

Paster

Paster

Free

Free

Free

Free

 

Adjust based on squad sizes. I think ideal squad sizes are around 12, so maybe 4 pasters (so one could be That Guy who pastes the 2 closest targets and sits down). The difficulty is tiny shooter brains and having to now keep up with a new requirement of when to start and stop pasting.

Actually, the keeping up wouldn't be a big deal really. The tablet Ro could call out the shooter, the on-deck, the in the hole, and then the pasters. So it would only add calling out a few names for the tablet r o, not really a huge deal

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I've shot with old school guys who were really into the on deck, brass, brass, paste paste thing in the shooting order. I found it really disagreeable.

 

At some point people need to just be reasonable humans and help out.

 

If you are cleaning your magazines then of course you are not pasting. Once your gear is squared away grab the timer or pad or roll of tape. If you need to go potty then go potty and come back to help paste. 

 

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39 minutes ago, Twinkie said:

A system of "pre-on deck shooters" (PODs maybe?) pasting would work except for bathroom breaks or other emergencies. It could be tracked simply on competitor cards like they use in IPSC but then people would game how many times they could get away with not pasting, save it to the end, etc. 

 

I would be willing to try the idea, but it honestly sounds like herding cats and way too legalistic to be popular. Like I said, though, I'd be willing to try it.

 

Squads of say 10 could be:

 

Shooter

On Deck

In the Hole

Paster

Paster

Paster

Free

Free

Free

Free

 

Adjust based on squad sizes. I think ideal squad sizes are around 12, so maybe 4 pasters (so one could be That Guy who pastes the 2 closest targets and sits down). The difficulty is tiny shooter brains and having to now keep up with a new requirement of when to start and stop pasting.

 

I would think something like 

 

Shooter 

On Deck

In hole

Free

Free

Free

Free

Paster

Paster

Paster

 

Would be easier. You shoot, then you paste for the next three shooters. That would be so easy for the shooters to keep track of them selves. Then you have 4 shooters to fill your mags before you're in the hole again on the next stage.  But, like you said herds of cats and such. 

 

A couple guys with paster guns can reset a stage fast if they want to. 

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1 hour ago, Twinkie said:

A system of "pre-on deck shooters" (PODs maybe?) pasting would work except for bathroom breaks or other emergencies. It could be tracked simply on competitor cards like they use in IPSC but then people would game how many times they could get away with not pasting, save it to the end, etc. 

 

I would be willing to try the idea, but it honestly sounds like herding cats and way too legalistic to be popular. Like I said, though, I'd be willing to try it.

 

Squads of say 10 could be:

 

Shooter

On Deck

In the Hole

Paster

Paster

Paster

Free

Free

Free

Free

 

Adjust based on squad sizes. I think ideal squad sizes are around 12, so maybe 4 pasters (so one could be That Guy who pastes the 2 closest targets and sits down). The difficulty is tiny shooter brains and having to now keep up with a new requirement of when to start and stop pasting.

While that would work at a major match with staff staying on the stage all day, it wouldn't at a local with squad members running the timer and kindle as someone needs to relieve RO and scorekeeper so they can get a break and shoot and load mags. 

Edited by Bosshoss
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8 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

My understanding is most of IPSC is that way, it seems like we're the only ones resetting during the match. Doesn't mean we're not doing it right. Some of that could be due to IPSC rules not allowing you on the stage prior to your official walk through. 

 

It's also my understanding that in a lot of countries there is much stricter regulations on firearm owners and only the more upper class can afford to play this game. Here in the states with guns, ammo and gear being less expensive and easier to obtain our average shooter probably isn't as rich as you might think.

 

I have not shot in any other countries so I don't know that this is accurate, but it seems reasonable. 

I see your point. Yes ipsc doesnt allow shooters touching targets. 
The guns and gears being affordable to most of you is correct too. But if you see the advantages in having a dedicated crew to do those works I think its more than balances the additional expenses. You enjoy the shooting more, have more time having fun w/ your friends, faster more effecient turn around of stages, more focus to the stages, less stress to shooters after stressfull runs, time to tend to personal needs, etc. and avoid these issues among shooters. You have to experience our system to see. Jj, KC, Blake, Kita had been here and could attest to it. Ben in one of his podcast said he is willing to pay for such advantages if uspsa would do it. He said its so much better than the status quo now. 

Edited by BoyGlock
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9 hours ago, Twinkie said:

I've been to a big IPSC match where there was staff reset, and while I get why they do it, I saw the most entitled, elitist competitors I hope I ever see.

I think this is not exclusive to ipsc alone otherwise this thread would not exist 🙃 

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I simply remind shooters the longer it takes to reset, the longer it takes to get the next shooter up, and that typically gets enough motivation to get shooter back at it.  We also paste as the RO and Scorer move around the stage, so we only need like 2 pasters at a time to get the job done.  I won't allow the Shooter, On Deck, or In the Hole shooter to partake though.

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13 hours ago, BoyGlock said:

I see your point. Yes ipsc doesnt allow shooters touching targets. 
The guns and gears being affordable to most of you is correct too. But if you see the advantages in having a dedicated crew to do those works I think its more than balances the additional expenses. You enjoy the shooting more, have more time having fun w/ your friends, faster more effecient turn around of stages, more focus to the stages, less stress to shooters after stressfull runs, time to tend to personal needs, etc. and avoid these issues among shooters. You have to experience our system to see. Jj, KC, Blake, Kita had been here and could attest to it. Ben in one of his podcast said he is willing to pay for such advantages if uspsa would do it. He said its so much better than the status quo now. 

 

I certainly see the potential benefit and would support level 2 and up matches going to this. I don't think it's really needed on the club level, but if a club can pull it off at a monthly or weekly match more power to them. 

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On 10/29/2020 at 4:18 PM, BoyGlock said:

Is this pasting resetting also true in Europe? Even in level 3s? We in the Philippines has a crew in each stage that does all those things including brassing. ...

For my corner of northern Europe, everybody will be pasting at small Level 1 club matches.

 

Level 2 and up, there''s a crew doing it. The crew is locals and other volunteers. Usually, the crew shoots on Saturday (for Level 2), with each squad doing their own ROing and resetting. Crew don't pay to shoot, and they get a lunch, and a roof over their heads if needed. Then they do all the work on Sunday's Main Match.

 

I haven't seen lots of big egos at the matches that I've gone to. The Crew do their best to run a stage in an efficient, fair and friendly way. The paying shooters mainly appreciate the Crew for making the match happen (and running it well).

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Over the years I've seen several clubs try running local matches no-paste, no-reset, but none of them have succeeded at it for very long. 

 

Majors it's a better story.  You have many more shooters to spread the cost.

 

 

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On 10/29/2020 at 10:27 AM, RJH said:

 

Could penalties be applied?  Say if the MD/RM announced it at the shooters meeting, idk.  I am not one for thinking up ways to hand out penalties, but damn i hate it when people don't tape.  I have almost been in fights over that s#!t.  I think a system where the 3 pre on deck shooters tape or something to that effect would be very efficient.   It could also help with when you tape the same 4 targets for every shooter and then when it is your turn to shoot those targets are not taped.  As it stands now i try to squad with people I know tape, it seems the best option available at this time

 

It would be nice for expectations regarding reset to be spelled out in the rulebook, so that people who are truly not helping with reset are punished appropriately. One of my friends at A6 this year was behind a squad where 4-5 shooters simply refused to help reset, even when staff told them to.

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You all seem to think there is this plethora of people that want to spend the day at a range to just paste and reset while the rest of us shoot.  If you can find them, I say go for it, but if not, just deal with it.

 

For those wanting penalties for non-pasters, will I get a bonus if I paste more than "my fair share"? 

 

 

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On 10/29/2020 at 12:29 PM, Racinready300ex said:

 

I shot in a squad once with two junior shooters their dad and a super squadder. The juniors where constantly asking the SS dude questions so those three weren't pasting, dad wasn't much help either, then you have a shooter on deck, one shooting and one in the whole trying not to do reset. That's 7-8 people of our 10 man squad. Talk about a frustrating day. 

 

But, I don't think there is anything in the rules that allows for PE's for not resetting. 

I've had that happen where me and another shooter realized we were the only ones working. One of the non pasters was up next, so we both took a long bathroom break and they got the point.

 

I do have a pasters gun so I don't mind pasting and can do most a stage myself but I don't think that excuses people from helping out.

 

There's an old guy at the club, says he's too old to help reset and has bad knees. But after the shooting is done he's on the ground trying to grab brass for himself.....

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9 minutes ago, vluc said:

 

 

For those wanting penalties for non-pasters, will I get a bonus if I paste more than "my fair share"? 

 

 

To be honest the only person i could see not liking a penalty for people not resetting, would be a non taping dickhead.  I routinely tape more than my fair share, and i have no wants for a bonus,  but i would like lazy bastards to help out a bit.

 

Like i said, at my local match i only squad with people who work. But i have been at other clubs and majors where i don't know everyone and there always seems to be one or two that think they don't need to help, and it is not because of physical impairment.  So if a penalty would get them off their ass, i am all for it

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5 hours ago, perttime said:

The crew is locals and other volunteers. Usually, the crew shoots on Saturday (for Level 2), with each squad doing their own ROing and resetting. Crew don't pay to shoot, and they get a lunch, and a roof over their heads if needed. Then they do all the work on Sunday's Main Match.

Our crew are dedicated pasters resetters brassers. They are not shooters. They work from start to finish of the match. And they are usually experienced from past matches that just a little briefings on specific stage issues are enough and they are good to go. This qualification helps a lot in running a stage efficiently. 

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On 10/29/2020 at 6:07 PM, BoyGlock said:

I see your point. Yes ipsc doesnt allow shooters touching targets.  

 

10 hours ago, perttime said:

IPSC doesnt allow the shooter who is being scored to touch the targets, or even go near enough to touch.

 

NOT true!

 

USPSA

 

9.1.1     Approaching Targets – While scoring is in progress, competitors or their delegate must not approach any target closer than (3 feet) without the authorization of the Range Officer. Violation may, at the discretion of the Range Officer, incur a procedural penalty.

 

IPSC

 

9.1.1      Approaching Targets – While scoring is in progress, competitors or their delegate must not approach any target closer than 1 meter without the authorization of the Range Officer. Violation will result in a warning for the first offense, but the competitor or his delegate may, at the discretion of the Range Officer, incur a procedural penalty for subsequent occurrences in the same match. 

 

There is NO difference whatsoever in the requirements.  There is a slight difference in how the penalty is approached.  To assert there is a difference between the two sets of rules here is unfounded.

 

USPSA RM

IROA RM

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3 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

 

NOT true!

 

USPSA

 

9.1.1     Approaching Targets – While scoring is in progress, competitors or their delegate must not approach any target closer than (3 feet) without the authorization of the Range Officer. Violation may, at the discretion of the Range Officer, incur a procedural penalty.

 

IPSC

 

9.1.1      Approaching Targets – While scoring is in progress, competitors or their delegate must not approach any target closer than 1 meter without the authorization of the Range Officer. Violation will result in a warning for the first offense, but the competitor or his delegate may, at the discretion of the Range Officer, incur a procedural penalty for subsequent occurrences in the same match. 

 

There is NO difference whatsoever in the requirements.  There is a slight difference in how the penalty is approached.  To assert there is a difference between the two sets of rules here is unfounded.

 

USPSA RM

IROA RM

I'm not saying that there is a difference. Just responding to the claim that no person who is a competitor can touch an IPSC target. Competitors can do resetting in an IPSC Match.

 

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6 hours ago, perttime said:

I'm not saying that there is a difference. Just responding to the claim that no person who is a competitor can touch an IPSC target. Competitors can do resetting in an IPSC Match.

 

Again, not true.  There is nothing in the rules, either USPSA or IPSC, that prohibits competitors from pasting targets AFTER they have been scored.  Read the rule ... Once a target is scored, scoring is no longer in process for that target.  Whether it is pasted by a staff person or a competitor is not an issue under the rules.

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