waktasz Posted April 29, 2022 Share Posted April 29, 2022 Production based Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted April 29, 2022 Share Posted April 29, 2022 Is that like "based on a true story"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted April 29, 2022 Share Posted April 29, 2022 16 minutes ago, shred said: Is that like "based on a true story"? Yes, just like the true-to-life stories they make in Hollywood... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted April 30, 2022 Share Posted April 30, 2022 5 hours ago, BritinUSA said: It's true that the 'base' gun has to be on the Production List, but to call it a production division is absurd. With all the customization that is now permitted it is little different from IPSC's Modified division. the overwhelming majority of shooters are using basic guns with maybe a drop in trigger kit. they are not at any disadvantage to the ones that prefer to customize the fit a little more. my co gun is stock except for springs, and i certainly don’t feel disadvantaged in any way except skill, eyesight, physical speed, patience, judgment and practice... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Chimpo Posted April 30, 2022 Share Posted April 30, 2022 39 minutes ago, motosapiens said: the overwhelming majority of shooters are using basic guns with maybe a drop in trigger kit. they are not at any disadvantage to the ones that prefer to customize the fit a little more. my co gun is stock except for springs, and i certainly don’t feel disadvantaged in any way except skill, eyesight, physical speed, patience, judgment and practice... +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Chimpo Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 Heard from Infinity jersey-wearing guy at match today that Infinity is floating a petition to create a new division, essentially Limited + a slide mounted red dot. A separate thing from CO. I don't know who this guy was, didn't care that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obsessiveshooter Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 A whole division for Limited pistols with slide optics? Besides the fact thats its a dumb idea, it wouldn't serve any interests but Infinity's bottom line. Of the like 50 timmies out there that bought a 2011 with a slide mounted dot, maybe 1 of them would shoot a uspsa match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrussell Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 I don’t think it is necessarily a dumb idea. I would like to try my old eyes out with a red dot on my major 40 Limited. If the Carry Optics Group would not allow the SAO guns, which I personally believe with the advancement of striker fired and SAO/DOA triggers/guns is not an advantage, then create a Division. Again, personally, I would rather reduce my load to shoot Carry Optics, but that seems to be a no go. I know, I can always shoot in Open, but I think it would be neat to shoot Major Optics without a compensator. Just the musings of an old fart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltdmstr Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 I think if there’s any further dilution of limited you’ll see a lot of people dropping out of the game. Personally, I have no interest in shooting minor or a handgun with a dot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 I don't think that USPSA can keep adding new divisions and/or loosening the rules of existing divisions. Enough already. Find the division that most closely matches your ideal then find the gun that complies with that division and that best suits you. Then learn how to use it to the best of your ability. That is purpose of the sport, to learn skills, and to challenge those skills against others in competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 11 minutes ago, BritinUSA said: I don't think that USPSA can keep adding new divisions and/or loosening the rules of existing divisions. Enough already. Find the division that most closely matches your ideal then find the gun that complies with that division and that best suits you. Then learn how to use it to the best of your ability. That is purpose of the sport, to learn skills, and to challenge those skills against others in competition. I can't disagree with that. In fact, unless you're shooting for the win it doesn't really matter what division you shoot in IMO. If we all shot open it would have really only affect about seven people, because everybody else was shooting for second anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrussell Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 I do agree with sentiment regarding not adding more Divisions in USPSA. I also believe that Carry Optics rules have been dramatically changed so as to change the original intent of the Division so that SAO guns would not be a material advantage. I agree with BritinUSA and would prefer to shoot major but could always download if allowed. For me, the real question is why is the 2011 platform not allowed in Carry Optics with all the current rule changes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrussell Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 RJH has a good point. My chances of winning anything at this point and time is infinitesimal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 21 minutes ago, cbrussell said: I do agree with sentiment regarding not adding more Divisions in USPSA. I also believe that Carry Optics rules have been dramatically changed so as to change the original intent of the Division so that SAO guns would not be a material advantage. I agree with BritinUSA and would prefer to shoot major but could always download if allowed. For me, the real question is why is the 2011 platform not allowed in Carry Optics with all the current rule changes? Because the basis of the division is Production division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrussell Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 As I see it, the Carry Optics guns allowed are no longer “Production” guns. Just as heavy as the 2011, magazine capacity same as 2011 etc. Really the only difference I see is the trigger mechanism which with the current state of aftermarket triggers and trigger work allowed, does not seem to be a disadvantage. When the Division was the same as the original Production Division with just a red dot added, I concur with you 100%. It no longer is anything like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 (edited) The original concepts of Production and Production Optics divisions were markedly different from Limited and Open respectively. And that was by design. Under the current rules there are very few restrictions on customization of the base production guns and the lines separating Prod/Prod Optics with Limited/Open have become very blurred. This has led to calls for a Limited~Minor division along with allowing SAO/2011 into the Carry Optics division. As I have said before I suspect we will soon see calls for mag-wells and ported barrels in Carry Optics. If the original concept had been left in place then perhaps this would not be an issue. Perhaps it would have become one of the top four divisions without any of the recent changes. We will only know the answer to that when/if IPSC releases a report showing the world-wide popularity of their divisions. Edited May 2, 2022 by BritinUSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 I say leave CO as is for a while, the way things are going it it will be THE division shortly. A friend is doing some data mining in practiscore looking at thousands of actual matches shot. Any changes should be CO (as is seems to be working) Open, PCC, then the way things are headed we can just have an Iron sight division because they are all shrinking away fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltdmstr Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 Those numbers pretty much back up what I've posted previously. But some people want to argue against reality. The sad thing about CO popularity is that with a heavy pistol, dot and minor power factor, shooting targets at close range ends up being more of a fitness contest than a shooting contest. And the low barriers to entry (skill-wise) are what make it popular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Chimpo Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 3 minutes ago, ltdmstr said: Those numbers pretty much back up what I've posted previously. But some people want to argue against reality. The sad thing about CO popularity is that with a heavy pistol, dot and minor power factor, shooting targets at close range ends up being more of a fitness contest than a shooting contest. And the low barriers to entry (skill-wise) are what make it popular. If the skills barrier to entry is so low, I'm sure you can come in and clean up house. Oh wait, you've never even shot a CO classifier yet...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltdmstr Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 Just now, Johnny_Chimpo said: If the skills barrier to entry is so low, I'm sure you can come in and clean up house. Oh wait, you've never even shot a CO classifier yet...... Not sure what me not shooting CO has to do with anything. And even if I did what difference would that make? I have physical limitations due to age, injuries, and handicaps that keep me from winning anything, regardless of how well I shoot. Which pretty much makes the point. It has little to do with actual shooting vs. how fast you can navigate an obstacle course. Thanks for backing me up on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Chimpo Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 2 minutes ago, ltdmstr said: Not sure what me not shooting CO has to do with anything. It has everything to do with you crapping on a division that you have never competed in and have no intention of competing in. I can respect differing opinions from people with relevant experience in the topic at hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 I’d love to see the same kind of graph for IPSC, I think they generally use EZWinscore or something like that rather than Practiscore, so I’m not sure if the data is available online. I shot this division before it was even a thing, the massive growth is not ideal in my opinion. As others have said, pretty soon it will be the only game in town, and that restricts choice for everyone else. New divisions tend to start off slow, typically they are provisional so people are wary of investing in a new gun for a division that may not be permanent. But once a few people start shooting at local matches then it encourages others to get involved as they now have someone to compete against. Growth is slow to start with but can take off once it reaches a ‘takeoff’ threshold and then it becomes exponential. Existing - and well established - divisions can fail for the same reason. Once participation at L1 matches drops below a certain threshold then those still shooting that division will be tempted to drop it as there are few people to compete with. Once that ‘collapse’ threshold is reached then a division is all but done. We saw this in IPSC with Modified Division, and I suspect Revolver and certainly L10 are on the way out already. There are different perspectives on USPSA’s division makeup/rules. I’ve stated my opinion on many occasions, I think USPSA broke the concept/balance of the main divisions. Time will tell if I was right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosshoss Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 37 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said: It has everything to do with you crapping on a division that you have never competed in and have no intention of competing in. I can respect differing opinions from people with relevant experience in the topic at hand. You must be new here Should have been around when the 8 shot Revolver thing was going on. Most of the people who chimed in about that never had or ever would compete in Revolver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Chimpo Posted May 3, 2022 Share Posted May 3, 2022 4 minutes ago, BritinUSA said: I shot this division before it was even a thing, the massive growth is not ideal in my opinion. As others have said, pretty soon it will be the only game in town, and that restricts choice for everyone else. That's the natural flow of things. Shooting sports that were massively popular in this country 20 - 30 years ago (NRA/CMP Service Rifle) are now virtually dead and rifle sports that offer what more people are looking for (Precision Rifle) are growing. Having your pet division exist in perpetuity is not guaranteed. One day, CO may be a thing of the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted May 3, 2022 Share Posted May 3, 2022 People like shooting hicaps. People like shooting 9mm minor. People like shooting dots. You ballers probably haven't noticed but it's been a wee bit slim pickins on primers lately so the divisions where reloading ammo is a big thing (Open, Limited) have taken a hit. Throw in the perceived need for a $3K+ custom blaster and it's small wonder CO is going nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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