2011 and Carry optics

[cbrussell]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

this is a sensible idea. honestly by the time i cant see well enough to shoot irons, im not going to be a threat to the open gms at my club anyway. i bet 40 open with no comp would be a hoot... and i could probably even get a barrel with a comp for not too much. i certainly wouldn’t want a whole new division with1-3 shooters just to pretend i was winning something.

This might just be the way to go. I don’t know if I would want the comped barrel but hey, always an option.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

17 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

 

Really?  I have presbyopia and manage pretty good with glasses made specifically for shooting.  Strong eye is corrected for my sights and weak eye is corrected for distance.   Takes some getting used to, but works great. 

 

Really.  Not everyone's vision is like yours.

 

Besides, the future is optical sights on virtually all handguns.  The popularity of carry optics is a signal that most are moving on.

[Racinready300ex]

13 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Really.  Not everyone's vision is like yours.

 

Besides, the future is optical sights on virtually all handguns.  The popularity of carry optics is a signal that most are moving on.

 

Is it really the dot or is it hi-cap 9mm? I think that might be just as big a factor as the dot. In fact I'd bet if prod went to 140's CO would take a pretty good hit to attendance. 

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

2 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Is it really the dot or is it hi-cap 9mm? I think that might be just as big a factor as the dot. In fact I'd bet if prod went to 140's CO would take a pretty good hit to attendance. 

It’s a little of both I’d wager.    But people definitely love not having to reload 3 and 4 times a stage.  

[BritinUSA]

All depends on what types of stages people generally shoot. If the clubs that a person attends are mostly high round-count stages then having to reload 2-3 times on every stage can start to get a little tiresome. It's not just the reload itself, its having to clean out the magazines each time to get the dirt out.

 

If your club favors a good mix of short, medium and long - or just the latter two - then 1-2 reloads per stage is not that big a deal and a change to magazine capacity would have little difference.

 

Personally, I think that 15 would have been ideal for both Production divisions (like in IPSC), I think that hits the sweet spot, but again a lot depends on stage design.

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

12 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

All depends on what types of stages people generally shoot. If the clubs that a person attends are mostly high round-count stages then having to reload 2-3 times on every stage can start to get a little tiresome. It's not just the reload itself, its having to clean out the magazines each time to get the dirt out.

 

If your club favors a good mix of short, medium and long - or just the latter two - then 1-2 reloads per stage is not that big a deal and a change to magazine capacity would have little difference.

 

Personally, I think that 15 would have been ideal for both Production divisions (like in IPSC), I think that hits the sweet spot, but again a lot depends on stage design.

I would definitely be down for us mirroring ipsc rules.  160 pf for open 170 for limited.  15 for production and 15 for CO and 32 rounds for pcc shooters 

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, OpenshooterAclass4lyfe said:

I would definitely be down for us mirroring ipsc rules.  160 pf for open 170 for limited.  15 for production and 15 for CO and 32 rounds for pcc shooters 

lame. open shooters already get a comp, they should harden TFU and have 175 pf.

[BritinUSA]

I remember back when I first started shooting we would aim for 180PF to be on the safe side… Those kinds of loads are tough on steel targets, and on the guns.

[ddc]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Is it really the dot or is it hi-cap 9mm? I think that might be just as big a factor as the dot. In fact I'd bet if prod went to 140's CO would take a pretty good hit to attendance. 

 

If I could go back and forth from Prod to CO and only have to change the slide but be able to use my CO rig and mags I'd likely do it. Same stage planning; same reloads. I kinda  like that idea...

[Johnny_Chimpo]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Is it really the dot or is it hi-cap 9mm? I think that might be just as big a factor as the dot. In fact I'd bet if prod went to 140's CO would take a pretty good hit to attendance. 

 

I started in production and went to CO for 2 reasons in order of importance

 

1. Presbyopia made iron sight shooting not fun
2. When I started in CO (2019) the exodus out of Production was picking up speed

I would have gone to CO even if it had remained at 10 rounds.  It IS nicer to be able to flow with fewer reloads, but staying low cap would not have kept me out of it.

 

I do have to say that I'm probably in the minority on that, and that you're likely right that big portion of CO shooters like the 22 - 25 rounds in the gun.

[Racinready300ex]

14 hours ago, OpenshooterAclass4lyfe said:

I would definitely be down for us mirroring ipsc rules.  160 pf for open 170 for limited.  15 for production and 15 for CO and 32 rounds for pcc shooters 

 

I think we've neutered major enough, either leave it where it is or get rid of it completely. 

 

If we're going to mirror ipsc we need to do it with all the equipment rules not just pick a couple we like. 

[Boomstick303]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

If we're going to mirror ipsc we need to do it with all the equipment rules not just pick a couple we like. 

 

Pretty much.  I do not think its a bad idea, but not required.  To be honest I am completely happy with the USPSA rules the way they are, but we know they wont stay this way.  

 

It would be nice if they left them alone for awhile.  

Edited April 28, 2022 by Boomstick303

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I think we've neutered major enough, either leave it where it is or get rid of it completely. 

 

If we're going to mirror ipsc we need to do it with all the equipment rules not just pick a couple we like. 

I never once stated that we should just pick the ones we liked.     Pretty sure my post said I would be down for mirroring ipsc rules.   That means in a whole.    

[Racinready300ex]

3 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

It would be nice if they left them alone for awhile.  

 

I'm game for this

[Racinready300ex]

Just now, OpenshooterAclass4lyfe said:

I never once stated that we should just pick the ones we liked.     Pretty sure my post said I would be down for mirroring ipsc rules.   That means in a whole.    

 

Ah, it seemed like you were saying mirror ipsc rules on PF and mag capacity in CO and Prod. Not everything.

 

I'm not really up on IPSC rules but I believe it would also mean a lot of limited guns would be illegal along with their mags. Some open mags would be illegal (170 vs 171) and most of the production gun upgrades we're currently using would be illegal. This would be a massive change to our equipment and it really unlikely to go over well. 

 

I'm not really opposed to the idea. 

 

 

[BritinUSA]

Limited and Open changes would mostly be the magazines (possibly maxwells too in Limited). IPSC Open has the minimum bullet weight, but that's not much of an issue.

 

As noted, the biggest change would be Production/Production Optics. As most USPSA members do not shoot above L1 matches its not likely to be much of an issue. 

[Gcarr]

I truly think CO took off and developed into something away from the original idea. But what a great division! Why “Carry” Optics but allow heavy guns and 140 mags…. Nobody “Carries” a gun that heavy with 140 mags and this not IDPA. I think Production Optics with Production rules… there plenty of optic ready guns available. Ready for it… Modified Optics allowing heavy guns and 140 mags. I say keep the minor PF and yes allow SA guns (agreed no great advantage over other guns on the market) 

[BritinUSA]

I’d love to see the latest division graphs from IPSC to see how Production Optics is growing and any impact it is having on other divisions.
 

As to bringing in a Modified division around a 9mm Minor handgun, I think it’s been discussed before. 
 

If the org were to do that then I would hope they would restore Production and Production Optics to what they were originally intended to be. We already had two heavily customized divisions (Open and Limited). The original concept was to offer a more cost effective option in both optics and iron-sights. 

[HI5-O]

Looks like a match in Texas is already calling it a provisional division by the name of Practical Carry Optics. 
 

Level 2 match. 

 

x

[Nathanb]

4 hours ago, HI5-O said:

Looks like a match in Texas is already calling it a provisional division by the name of Practical Carry Optics. 
 

Level 2 match. 

 

x

Sponsored by infinity. Who wants this to become a thing so they can sell more guns to people.  No agenda there.  This is all just an attempt to say see people will shoot it look at the numbers. 

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

4 hours ago, HI5-O said:

Looks like a match in Texas is already calling it a provisional division by the name of Practical Carry Optics. 
 

Level 2 match. 

 

x

The carry optics match is not a sanctioned part of the level 2 match.   It’s basically a side match.   Troy has already addressed this 

[RJH]

4 hours ago, HI5-O said:

Looks like a match in Texas is already calling it a provisional division by the name of Practical Carry Optics. 
 

Level 2 match. 

 

x

So it says normal carryops guns or 2011s basically with mag wells, so can you put a MAG well on your normal carry-ops gun for this match?

 

Also what's going to happen if they have this match and somebody with a plastic carry-ops gun wins? Will that  prove the point that the 2011 is not really an advantage in carry-ops?

 

Either way, I like the idea of having a standalone match for different things. Seems a perfect test bed for future rule changes, or proving that the rules are good to go the way they are now

[Racinready300ex]

7 minutes ago, RJH said:

Also what's going to happen if they have this match and somebody with a plastic carry-ops gun wins? Will that  prove the point that the 2011 is not really an advantage in carry-ops?

 

 

I'd venture to guess there hoping that's how it plays out. 

 

Have you seen where Lia Thomas didn't win that one race so clearly this means men....er trans women have no advantage in sports over biological women? Kinda the same concept really.

 

It's interesting to think back over the years and the times gun builders got into it about who's guns are better or more reliable and all the talk of the work and "tuning", "flatness", "perfect zero" etc that goes into these machines that justifies up to 8-10K in some cases. And now we're being told a $500 plastic gun is just as good.

[RJH]

1 minute ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I'd venture to guess there hoping that's how it plays out. 

 

Have you seen where Lia Thomas didn't win that one race so clearly this means men....er trans women have no advantage in sports over biological women? Kinda the same concept really.

 

It's interesting to think back over the years and the times gun builders got into it about who's guns are better or more reliable and all the talk of the work and "tuning", "flatness", "perfect zero" etc that goes into these machines that justifies up to 8-10K in some cases. And now we're being told a $500 plastic gun is just as good.

 

Not just told a $500 plastic gun is just as good, shown. Last year's limited Nationals should have blown everybody's illusions that they had to have a 2011 to win, or even place in the top three out of the water LOL. And a plastic gun one limited Nationals the year before that, and I want to say a plastic gun was third but it's been a couple of years and I've slept since then. And that shooting major ammo (except nils) where I would expect heavy steel gun to actually have a solid advantage. But I guess since we can add weight to plastic guns now it's not a big deal

 

But I do have to agree that gun companies marketing their several thousand dollar guns as the greatest thing ever, but then saying they're the same as a Glock is pretty comical. Sad truth is, I think they are pretty much the same as a Glock, well maybe a canik since a canik has a badass trigger for plastic gun

[motosapiens]

it lol'd me that they called the division 'practical', when heavy-ass 2011's are the least practical guns available.