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ICORE major scoring


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How would you guys feel about some form of power factor recognition in ICORE? There's a good number of 625s out there, but I'm not seeing them at ICORE matches.

 

I propose major power factor for 6 shot guns only, and only in Limited or maybe just L6. Power factor set the same as USPSA major. Scoring penalties would be reduced by a half second for hits on the target that are outside of the A zone. Misses and penalty targets stay the same.

 

If this were to become a thing, I'd probably switch to the 625 full time in ICORE.

 

--

Pat Jones

Firestone CO

USPSA #A79592

 

 

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NO and NO again.

Simple no long winded reason.

 

My club has the ONLY ICORE matches in appox 150mile radius and we only get 20+ shooters a month.

That club looked at the 22LR division as a joke and we don't need another division or split in a division.

Our limited 6 guys shoot mostly 625's with one guy shooting a 9mm conversion on a 686.

 

2nd - a 1/2 second difference is huge!   We both know the split difference is no where near a 1/2 second difference between major and minor.

In USPSA SS division you get the option of more rounds when using minor.  Obviously that would not be viable in L6.  Maybe in Limited buy why 

L6 is the perfect spot for the 625.

 

People left IDPA in droves when they kept changing rules, maybe we could learn a lesson from that and not change stuff for change sake!

 

 

 

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Next thought is this FWIW

Most folks seem to start ICORE in classic division.  Then they get excited about the game.

They want to upgrade equipment.  The next move is usually to Limited or Open.

 

The rules added L6 a few years ago to deal with the 625 vs the 627/929 issue.

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This was discussed in ( recent ) history already among the ICORE BOD and was voted down,  too many cons versus pros.

 

But, if you still feel strongly about it - Don't hesitate to submit a rule change form with a compelling argument for us to discuss.

 

Thanks,

Alec 

ICORE BOD.

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You can always shoot major in ICORE and nothing stops you from showing your skill shooting major. If you shoot well enough you will be recognized and I say this knowing you are an accomplished revolver shooter. 😁

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The problem is the Time Based Scoring System.  How would you factor in a difference?  Give a 10% penalty/bonus?

USPSA/IPSC can do it due to the Hit Factor Scoring System.

 

I'm using my 625 with 175 SWC Acme Bullets at a bit over 700 f/s for a 123 +/- PF.  These bullets are coated and have a larger nose with a bit smaller shoulder ledge.  Haven't seen any fumbles on reloads either.  Well at least that I can't say were operator induced!  Have seen 185 RN bullets and at 700 f/s = 129 PF, about where my 38 short colts are too.

 

So I'd not be in favor either.

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ICORE has set the minimum power factor below USPSA minor in recognition that many factory 38 special loads don't make minor. I understood this was so a competitor would not be _required_ to handload.

Factory 45 makes well over 180 power factor. It's ok to require these shooters to handload?

--
Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592

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Good morning.

 

I just saw this post, and OMG.

1 - power factor in IPSC / USPSA is just the most silly thing going, most know how to get around it, until they change springs and other parts before they get to the Crone.

2 - a 120 power factor for the NRA Action Pistol Matches ( Bianchi ) is perfect, all firearms can make most of the time with hand loads, and most factory ammo will make it.

3 - why in the heck would one want to punish there arms and body and firearms anymore than needed??? we are no out there trying to kill something, we are trying to shoot accurately and fast. not drive a round through a concrete block!!!

4 - I for one have spent 42 years working with my hands, and at 59 they feel the ware, and sometimes hurt like heck, why when I'm trying to have a little fun would I want to make things worse????

if for any reason we need to change things, then lets start with the scoring system.

In IPSC/USPSA you can still win even with a miss, if you shoot fast enough.

In ICORE, a great fun sport, its he who can load the fastest wins the game.

So lets change the way we score the sport, and not make it harder and more painful to shoot because some think we are killing something!!

Stopping power means nothing if the shot does not hit the correct place, end of storey.

if we make accuracy the most important factor the game changes for the better, not the speed.

I for one love all the shooting sports, but the issue is always He Who Has the Most Money wins most of the time, and cheating is rampant in all the sports.

 

If we want to change anything, then lets make the game more challenging, not harder on the firearms and the body.

 

Just my .25cents worth. Canadian of course

 

Thank you for your time

J. Russell Bryan

Canadian, Shooter of anything that's fun.

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When I was ICORE Chairnan IDPA changed their standards regarding 625's.  I saw the need to have a L6 Division to give those 625 owners a place to play and pushed for this division.  It has worked out well.  I shoot a 627 and 625 and compete against different people in each division in the same match.  I could not hold my own shooting an open 627 against Mark Itstein or even Ryan McQuilty. so I go where they don't play.

 

 

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9 hours ago, PatJones said:

ICORE has set the minimum power factor below USPSA minor in recognition that many factory 38 special loads don't make minor. I understood this was so a competitor would not be _required_ to handload.

Factory 45 makes well over 180 power factor. It's ok to require these shooters to handload?

--
Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592
 

You can purchase Soft Ball loads, https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/50rds-45-acp-federal-gold-medal-185gr-fmj-swc-ammo, 185 jswc @ 770 f/s (730 f/s actual usually) = 142 (135)PF.  Note I like that bullet for my 45 acp Revolver I found it loaded as fast as RN.  Won a case of Hornady's in that shape and tried them in the ACP.  Worked great, then they stopped making them!  So yes, they have several options.  My guess is it is more likely that you would see competitors using factory ammo with say a M28 than with a 45 acp Revolver. So in that case how about "adjusting" for the lack of Jet Comp type Speed Loaders?

I understand your thoughts, personally I don't think the solution is fudging with the scoring system.

Edited by pskys2
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On 5/24/2020 at 1:11 PM, jcc7x7 said:

Thank God it was voted down

 

22 hours ago, PatJones said:

I feel the skill required to shoot a higher caliber revolver is valuable and should be recognized.

--
Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592
 

I am curious, did you guys get up one morning and swap hats? It appears that you are both 180 from a year ago. Here is the thread here on enos i am making reference to. 

 

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I was gonna say... I think this was one of the suggestions we voted on a few months back (as well as Rimfire and Snub Nose).

 

I shoot L6 more than any other division, and I shoot major revolvers in all of the other sports (full-blown USPSA major, not that cute IDPA power floor :P ). I don't feel like I need any special recognition for bringing my 40's to play in ICORE; I've weighed out the pros and cons, and I'll take a little more palm-slap in exchange for faster reloads and a guarantee that steel is going down with a passable hit. L6 is typically the most poorly-attended division as it is, so further fracturing isn't going to help anything. I like the idea of keeping the division unified and adjusting scoring, in theory, but I can't figure out a good way to make that work. 

 

Of course, I still lose all the time, so maybe I should just focus on winning chrono from now on...

Edited by matteekay
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On 5/26/2020 at 2:23 AM, PatJones said:

ICORE has set the minimum power factor below USPSA minor in recognition that many factory 38 special loads don't make minor. I understood this was so a competitor would not be _required_ to handload.

Factory 45 makes well over 180 power factor. It's ok to require these shooters to handload?

--
Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592
 

 

So at work we have these people we call the "good idea fairies"

 

They show up, drop a deuce of an idea and say "we should do it this way".  When pressed on the details of implementing what they want done, or asked if they've thought through all the ramifications............. silence.

 

The floor is yours..............

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I think making snub nose a division would have been a mistake. I think making it a special recognition category was an excellent compromise. 

 

Would a “major PF” recognition for regionals/IRC end this debate? 

 

As, MWP said, we need shooters not rules. And I doubt adding a new division/rule will bring the crowds out. 

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8 hours ago, MWP said:

ICORE needs participants. And matches that don’t cancel. 
 

Not scoring changes. 

Are you showing up to any ICORE matches this year?

 

I just booked flights to Arizona for the October match last night.  We can fly into the USA just not drive.  Does cut ammo a little close with the ammo weight restriction  but if I have to fly to shoot a major match (and shoot factory at the last stage) so be it!!

 

Side benefit of all this "chaos" is booking on points is now super easy and free to cancel (which I've been doing a lot of lately....).  Before I could never get a direct flight to AZ on points.

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2 hours ago, MikeyScuba said:

Are you showing up to any ICORE matches this year?


Are there any left?

 

Club matches are happening at the clubs majors are getting canceled at. 
 

My August and Sept are booked with Steel Challenge and USPSA. First weekend of OCT is the big revolver match in Fallon. I’m eyeing the SW regional in October as well. Pretty solid chance I book a flight to that one.  

 

Honesty I’m half tempted to get some paperwork rolling on the Australian championship in late October if my wife’s work schedule allows it. 

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Fallon, what's and where's that?

 

Good to see the Aussie's still have their regional.  We ain't.  Everything match related around here is cancelled until July1.

 

And even when  IPSC matches (there will be like 5 ICORE matches around these parts..if any) start up you have to wear a mask.  I'm not sure people realize how hot they are in the summer.  We use the vented N95's at our shop and they aren't fun in the heat.

 

We have some P100's from when we first started shooting indoors and found out about lead.   The big twin pink vented ones.  IF we have to wear a mask for a match I'm wearing the P100 with a cowboy hat -mad max style.

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21 minutes ago, MikeyScuba said:

Fallon, what's and where's that?

 

Good to see the Aussie's still have their regional.  We ain't.  Everything match related around here is cancelled until July1.

 

And even when  IPSC matches (there will be like 5 ICORE matches around these parts..if any) start up you have to wear a mask.  I'm not sure people realize how hot they are in the summer.  We use the vented N95's at our shop and they aren't fun in the heat.

 

We have some P100's from when we first started shooting indoors and found out about lead.   The big twin pink vented ones.  IF we have to wear a mask for a match I'm wearing the P100 with a cowboy hat -mad max style.

Makes a lot of sense doesn't it, the virus doesn't do well in sunlight or heat add in wind and unless someone sneezes in your face it would seem the risk is very low.  But heat exhaustion and heat stroke will go up wearing a mask in hot and/or humid weather.  

There are a lot of government fools making some serious decisions that can end up being just as deadly as the virus.

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57 minutes ago, MikeyScuba said:

Fallon, what's and where's that?

Similar to the Mesquite match. Hour east of Reno. First weekend in October, announcement should be out soon. 

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6 hours ago, RangerMcFadden said:

I think making snub nose a division would have been a mistake. I think making it a special recognition category was an excellent compromise. 

 

Would a “major PF” recognition for regionals/IRC end this debate? 

 

As, MWP said, we need shooters not rules. And I doubt adding a new division/rule will bring the crowds out. 

 

I don't think it's needed, per say, but I actually wouldn't mind seeing it as a special recognition category. Hell, open it up to all divisions - if you're crazy enough to shoot 8 rounds of full-house .357 before a reload, more power to you.

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22 hours ago, matteekay said:

 

 

I don't think it's needed, per say, but I actually wouldn't mind seeing it as a special recognition category. Hell, open it up to all divisions - if you're crazy enough to shoot 8 rounds of full-house .357 before a reload, more power to you.

Ran a COF at a local USPSA Match couple of years ago with my 627, Full Power Reloads 125 JHP's @ 1450 f/s, from an IWB holster.  Just to check out the EDC gear.  Warned the RO beforehand, as I usually shoot 160's @ 820 f/s.  Still scared the bejesus out of him.  Worked good, times were good, reloads went great just more thumpin' to the hand.  I'm sure it cost me a few seconds more, but not a lot.  It was fun, though it would get expensive!

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