Despicable Behavior and Rule 6.4.4: "barred from competition"

[IVC]

On 5/28/2020 at 2:30 PM, Styro said:

Well it's definitely not illegal to do that.

Depending on how you see it - I see it as theft and theft is illegal, even if the payment processor was the one to facilitate it. It's just something you don't do to your fellow shooters, or at least not without being outed. (I understand the policy of this forum not to out people, but that's just the forum; other MD-s will find out.) 

 

 

[Styro]

4 hours ago, IVC said:

Depending on how you see it - I see it as theft and theft is illegal, even if the payment processor was the one to facilitate it. It's just something you don't do to your fellow shooters, or at least not without being outed. (I understand the policy of this forum not to out people, but that's just the forum; other MD-s will find out.) 

 

 

I see it in the eyes of the law. You see it in your opinion.

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, Styro said:

I see it in the eyes of the law. You see it in your opinion.

 

There's the law and then there's street justice.

 

These guys will get their version of street justice at the hands of match directors that don't tolerate that behavior.  Rest assured that virtually all MDs in my area know their names.

[IVC]

On 6/3/2020 at 1:29 PM, Styro said:

I see it in the eyes of the law. You see it in your opinion.

You're certainly not seeing it in the eyes of the law. Payment processor's rules that allow a charge-back to be physically processed have nothing to do with the contract law that regulates whether the organizer is entitled to the entry fee per the cancellation policy. 

 

If anything, you're conflating the law with the payment processor rules - just because the payment processors transfers the money back to a person doesn't mean that person doesn't still owe the money. 

[terrydoc]

I must say the interpretation of "despicable behaviour" by the OP is pretty over the top. I thought it might have been stealing from peoples bags or fiddling with kiddies but no just simply not turning up to a match and then trying to get their money back. Hope I never speed driving on his carpark.

 

[IVC]

On 6/11/2020 at 9:24 PM, terrydoc said:

I thought it might have been stealing from peoples bags

It was. The bag belonged to the MD, he used the payment processor to help him...

[SGT_Schultz]

On 6/12/2020 at 12:24 AM, terrydoc said:

I must say the interpretation of "despicable behaviour" by the OP is pretty over the top. I thought it might have been stealing from peoples bags or fiddling with kiddies but no just simply not turning up to a match and then trying to get their money back. Hope I never speed driving on his carpark.

 

 

I think your definition of theft isn't broad enough

[terrydoc]

So what your saying is he chased a refund of the money He paid after not turning up to a match? Did he take or claim back more than He paid? And thats what you call despicable?

 

 Definition of despicable. : deserving to be despised : so worthless or obnoxious as to rouse moral indignation despicable behavior.

 

Gee Id hate to get on your wrong side if I picked up your brass by mistake

[Sarge]

3 hours ago, terrydoc said:

So what your saying is he chased a refund of the money He paid after not turning up to a match? Did he take or claim back more than He paid? And thats what you call despicable?

 

 Definition of despicable. : deserving to be despised : so worthless or obnoxious as to rouse moral indignation despicable behavior.

 

Gee Id hate to get on your wrong side if I picked up your brass by mistake

He essentially stole money

[echotango]

On 6/28/2020 at 6:08 PM, terrydoc said:

So what your saying is he chased a refund of the money He paid after not turning up to a match? Did he take or claim back more than He paid? And thats what you call despicable?

 

 

Yes, there were no refunds and he got it back thru his cc co. The MD was going to return what he could to the ones who withdrew.  But now they got less since this guy stole his money back.  The MD didn't need to return anything to start with.  

[mreed911]

On 5/13/2020 at 1:59 PM, StealthyBlagga said:

 

We did - the person was unrepentant and not interested in taking any responsibility for their decision.

 

At that point, require cash only from this shooter going forward, and they can only register once payment is received and processed.  Delete/refund any registrations otherwise from them.

[echotango]

18 hours ago, mreed911 said:

 

At that point, require cash only from this shooter going forward, and they can only register once payment is received and processed.  Delete/refund any registrations otherwise from them.

Better yet, do not allow him to come back.  

[Hammer002]

There just seems like there's so much more to this.  First, as a company/entity, you can explain the charge situation to a requesting bank.  I have a feeling if it was just taken, no one responded to the inquiry.  So the club has a treasurer problem.  Or needs one.  lol.

 

Next, as competitors, we reap what we sew.  So if this happens, its a small world, everyone gonna know about it and each match director will decide how they want to handle it for their matches.  Yes, the USPSA could be involved, but its not likely they will want to be involved in the transaction responsibility between a club or match director and his customers.  The USPSA's involvement is to get paid their fees, not involve themselves with civil business between other people.  There could be an interesting interaction if using practiscore and stripe.  There are new things with the "storefront" addition I just don't know yet.

 

Sometimes, as a match director, in the theme of customer service, you look over some of these things from time to time.  The variance in competitor personality is immense.  If it became a repeat issue, I'm sure there are measures that could be taken.  In this case, I am still convinced someone simply did not respond to the inquiry, or have contact information for the bank properly set.  But that's an educated guess.  I can tell you this though, a lot of you would have a tough time being a match director, stuff like this, better or worse is constant.  Cant flip out over some of it.

[Schutzenmeister]

1 hour ago, Hammer002 said:

[...]

 

Yes, the USPSA could be involved, [...]

 

 

Not really.  There is a doctrine in contracting referred to as Privity of Contract.  

 

Quote

The doctrine of privity of contract is a common law principle which provides that a contract cannot confer rights or impose obligations upon any person who is not a party to the contract.

 

This transaction was a contract between the match organizers and the shooter.  HQ USPSA was not in any way a party to this contract.  Hence, they have no legal standing, one way or another, in any dispute arising therefrom.

[Hammer002]

56 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

Not really.  There is a doctrine in contracting referred to as Privity of Contract.  

 

 

This transaction was a contract between the match organizers and the shooter.  HQ USPSA was not in any way a party to this contract.  Hence, they have no legal standing, one way or another, in any dispute arising therefrom.

 

You are right, except my consideration was due to USPSA taking over practiscore.  That was my could reference.  If the payment was made over practiscore, USPSA is involved, somewhat

[Racinready300ex]

50 minutes ago, Hammer002 said:

 

You are right, except my consideration was due to USPSA taking over practiscore.  That was my could reference.  If the payment was made over practiscore, USPSA is involved, somewhat

 

Wait, USPSA took over PS? When did this happen?

[Hammer002]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Wait, USPSA took over PS? When did this happen?

 

like two years ago.  When they started coming down on paying all the dues.  Not a complete takeover, but they have merged and encompassed by USPSA.  however you wanna say it.

[ChuckS]

23 minutes ago, Hammer002 said:

 

like two years ago.  When they started coming down on paying all the dues.  Not a complete takeover, but they have merged and encompassed by USPSA.  however you wanna say it.

 

I am not sure where you heard that but USPSA has zero ownership interest nor any contract with Practiscore. Practiscore is completely independent.

[Hammer002]

1 hour ago, ChuckS said:

 

I am not sure where you heard that but USPSA has zero ownership interest nor any contract with Practiscore. Practiscore is completely independent.

ah, you guys are right. I don’t know anything. Carry on

[ChuckS]

8 minutes ago, Hammer002 said:

ah, you guys are right. I don’t know anything. Carry on

As per a conversation with Ken Nelson about two hours ago. Carrying on...

 

[Hammer002]

3 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

As per a conversation with Ken Nelson about two hours ago. Carrying on...

 

you the man chuck. So he told you nothing about uspsa partnering with practiscore to keep track of match dues per club, huh.  Well it must not be true then. I’m glad

Edited July 6, 2020 by Hammer002

[Hammer002]

12 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

As per a conversation with Ken Nelson about two hours ago. Carrying on...

 

it’s amazing the direction you fuddy duddies will take something to stroke your own egos. I mean, that’s why every time I check in here when I’m bored it’s the exact same names arguing the exact same things calling each other the exact same names, right?  How about we just make it easy......I’ll say.....WHITE!  Who’s gonna be the fastest to rush in and say black??  You chucky?  Don’t let someone with a lower post count beat ya!

Edited July 6, 2020 by Hammer002

[ima45dv8]

5 minutes ago, Hammer002 said:

it’s amazing the direction you fuddy duddies will take something to stroke your own egos. I mean, that’s why every time I check in here when I’m bored it’s the exact same names arguing the exact same things calling each other the exact same names, right?  How about we just make it easy......I’ll say.....WHITE!  Who’s gonna be the fastest to rush in and say black??  You chucky?  Don’t let someone with a lower post count beat ya!

 

[Hammer002]

4 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

 

hey mark.  Sorry man.  I’ll be good. 

[Hammer002]

Sorry everyone. I get bored and my sense of humor is different than everyone else’s. What I think is funny others don’t usually appreciate. I’ll go back to my corner.