Reason to choose a 1911 in 40 S&W over 45 ACP for USPSA?

[RIIID]

17 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

You sure about that?

 

https://practiscore.com/results/new/90343?q_division=8

 

(This was the very first Area match I found with a a quick practiscore search.)

Not a very good example look at the time and hits/non hits between 1st and 2nd. If the major shooter slowed down slightly and made the hits, that shooter probably would have won handily.

In what year did a minor shooter win the Single Stack Classic or Nationals?  

Rich

 

[GrumpyOne]

29 minutes ago, Igloodude said:

Oh, and every once in a while, a .45 hole hits the perf line where a .40 or 9 hole will not...

And, every once in a while, a 45 hole hits the perf line of a no shoot where a 40 or 9 hole will not.

[shred]

I've shot a bunch of SS- World Shoots, Pan Ams, IPSC & USPSA Nats, Areas and locals.

Single Stack Nationals is always a special case. Major has been anywhere from a strong (PASA days) to moderate (USA) advantage there.
Area matches and others that cater to all divisions are usually better balanced, depending on the stages.

I have a FFL and dealer accounts and occasionally look for them-- 40 cal single stacks from major manufacturers are heading towards dinosaur status. There are way more 10mm single stack models listed than 40s these days-- It's easier to get a 10mm or .45 ACP 1911 to run reliably if you're a major manufacturer and the general gun customer base has moved from .40 as well.

There are still legit reasons to get .40 if you want to shoot SS-- but mostly if you plan to shoot Major and/or are setup to load it.
Brass and bullets won't ever go away. Uses small primers which makes changing the Dillon easier. Lighter than .45 ACP if you fly.

But if you just want to run with the Production shooters at a local match, get a 9. It's cheaper yet to run.

Switching major/minor at the match seems like a good idea but rarely works out well unless you train hard with both beforehand. Most good shooters I know that tried this path decided switching last-minute was too risky for reliability in any case and have separate Major & Minor guns and make the decision well before the match.

[zzt]

I can think of very few times having 11 in the gun to start would have been an advantage.  If I am shooting in a Division that allows major, that is what I want to shoot.  When I first started shooting USPSA I started in Limited shooting 40 major.  I was advised by several of the shooters who got me into the game to go for accuracy first, then speed.  I finished most matches with between 90 and 94% of all possible points.  It was not uncommon to score 24 As and 2 Cs on a stage.  I was slow, and it showed in the overall standings.

 

I started pushing for speed and didn't worry about getting all As.  Splits improved dramatically.  I got fewer As but didn't suffer because I only lost one point for each C.  So I climbed in the overall because I was faster.  Since USPSA is essentially points per second, major lets you push harder and penalizes you less for a C.

 

I have a friend who is a really, really good SS shooter shooting 45 major.  I can count on half a hand how many times I've seen him do a standing reload in a season.

[BryceA]

If I decide to try out SS, it sounds like a 9mm would be a better move for me at this time. I'm only setup for loading 9mm now and it sounds like a 1911 in 40 S&W might be more trouble than it's worth and probably isn't a forward looking decision. I'm interested in a 1911 because I'm interested in a steel frame gun (I have converged on what I like in poly striker 9mm's, time to move on to the next class of firearm that one should own ) but perhaps I'd be better off looking at steel frame guns suitable for limited, prod, or CO.

 

Thanks for all the input, I appreciate being able to lean on the experience here.

[mike4045]

I run 40 so I can shoot major/minor as needed. I prefer to shoot major. It makes a nice steel gun also. 

[JayB059]

@BryceA, where did you see/find a 1911 Max in .40? Only the 9mm and .45 are listed on Sig's website ... I know it's been that way since November, so I'm thinking they are no longer making it in .40, but I assume there are some still out there, just harder to find now?

[jcc7x7]

1 hour ago, JayB059 said:

@BryceA, where did you see/find a 1911 Max in .40? Only the 9mm and .45 are listed on Sig's website ... I know it's been that way since November, so I'm thinking they are no longer making it in .40, but I assume there are some still out there, just harder to find now?

There's a bunch on GB right now.

[shred]

Yeah, SIG blew them out a few months ago through the distributors and the GB sellers are now trying to flip them, so there are deals to be had.

[Chrisperkins027]

The big factor for me was cost in reloading which can be substantial over the long term depending on how many rounds you shoot/reload.

[pjb45]

On 1/3/2020 at 8:21 PM, sitw said:

"My best guess is that 40 S&W the flexibility to legitimately switch between major or minor power factor based on the course."

 

Not sure I understand that comment.  What do you mean by switching between power factors based on the course?

At the Desert Classic, Area 2 Championship one year I believe the winner and a couple M class shot minor.  It wasn’t about shooting faster it was about the course of fire. Stages with a lot of steel, hard cover, and no shoots where misses and extra shots are normal, minor is advantageous and reduces the number of reloads and/or allowed to take more risks. 
 

At the Mid-Coast Dual Championsip, Dave S shooting for Glock said having 2 extra rounds over the GMs shooting SS Major allowed him to take ‘extra’ risks, thus enabling him to crush the SS GMs. 

[Specialneeds]

A few points..

 

Most of the single stack 9minor race mules are extremely bottom heavy and top light. A large portion are tritoped and internally gutted. Those guys who spent five grand on a custom are most likely going to be in M or GM class. How many feel good novice shooters bring their 'fourtyfive' and shoot once or twice? You are comparing apples to oranges.

 

Second, saying loading 45 is more expensive.. 4gr titegroup and a 230 cast lead. Range brass is cheap. I bought over 5000 45acp cases for $50 cash. Granted I am still throwing away blazer and other random small pistol primer brass... I spent $160 on 8lbs of titegroup.

 

You all are a bit over your head with the blown out claims.

 

An equally built 45acp versus 9mm in singlestack.. major versus minor. Both with skilled shooters - you are at a shooter's race. 9minor struggles on properly calibrated steel. You need to be center hits. I have seen plenty of times a major round can fringe hit knockdowns and they fall. 9minor guys get a fringe hit and have to come back to that plate on rack.

 

Paper shoots.. the 9minor has a better hand. More bullets, more holes. Though, 45 can make a charlie turn to alpha faster than a 9.

 

The entire uspsa sport turned to 9mm. I have yet to find it any cheaper to reload. Unless you are coming down to a 1.5cent per shot difference making any count.

 

Maybe at 15,000 rounds a year.. sure. Ok. I know some GM shooters. Know what I was told? "Dry fire. Reload drills. I fire less than 500 rounds a month of live fire. It is all at the match."

 

To each your own.

[TimHawkins]

Hello,.

 I have 9, 40 and 45 1911s and enjoy shooting them all but if a match has a lot of steel I shoot the 9mm because a hit is an alpha no matter what cal. you are shooting.

On paper I think major is a factor if you aren't shooting a high percentage of alphas.

The advantage of the 40 is that you can load major or minor depending on the matches you want to shoot.

I think zzt made a great point about never loading flat footed, reading the course and when you reload make a bigger difference than cal. 

I should say that I'm a c shooter and speed isn't part of my game anymore and the matches I shoot are practice matches and they send the stages out before the match so I can choose the gun based on the stages. I think I shoot major 75% of the time because I like those big holes that I can see easily on paper.

 I think the 40 is nice because you can load light and shoot minor if you want to shoot a steel match or major for uspsa. If you buy a 9 you are locked into minor 

 and a 45 locks you into major. With a 40 you can shoot either with one gun.

 Tim

[shred]

When the targets are far and partial is when Major gets the edge. That happens to be more of what major matches have more of...

At a local, whatever floats your boat. I shoot Minor SS because it's way more fun to shoot 500 rounds of in an afternoon and I do well enough at it to win stuff occasionally.
 

[zzt]

On 1/5/2020 at 6:21 PM, BryceA said:

If I decide to try out SS, it sounds like a 9mm would be a better move for me at this time. I'm only setup for loading 9mm now........

 

Then go for it.  My only suggestion is when buying 10-round mags for it you buy them from Brownell's.  They allow you to return them for full credit.  I went trough Tripp, Wilson ETM, and McCormick mags before I found the Brownell's 10-round mags worked.  They are made by Metalform and are the same mag Dawson sells.  Base pads are different.

 

I'll also suggest you fully load the mags and let them sit for weeks, or any time you are not using them.  For some reason all 9mm 10-round mag springs are super strong and cause the first round to nose dive until the spring weakens enough and takes a set.  I you can live with 9-round mags, use the ones that come with your pistol and you'll have no problems.  BTW, you WILL have to experiment with OAL depending on the bullet profile you choose.

[perttime]

Sometimes, I come across stages where having only 8 or 9 in the gun has forced me to slow down to make sure I get a plate or popper with one shot.

 

... is that an advantage or a disadvantage?

[zzt]

6 hours ago, perttime said:

.. is that an advantage or a disadvantage?

 

It depends on how much you slow down.  If you are taking an extra half second on each of those 8 shots, that's a lot of time.

[motosapiens]

On 1/10/2020 at 7:17 AM, Specialneeds said:

 

Most of the single stack 9minor race mules are extremely bottom heavy and top light. A large portion are tritoped and internally gutted. Those guys who spent five grand on a custom are most likely going to be in M or GM class. 

 

 

they guy that won A1 and A2, shooting minor, runs a stock PM9, which has a heavy-ass slide.

 

Regarding the original question, to me the main advantage of 40 is sharing bullets with limited, and not having the switch the press over to 45. Shooting 40 minor is stupid and unreliable, which is why lots of people suggest it, but pretty much no one actually does it.

Edited January 11, 2020 by motosapiens

[belus]

On 1/4/2020 at 10:04 AM, cheers623 said:

I’ve noticed over years of shooting .45, .40, and 9mm in SS Division that .40 loaded to the same PF and bullet weight as .45 feels slightly less recoil when slow firing off the timer. When the buzzer goes off though....it’s all the same. From a reloading component perspective though...40 all day long over .45! However, from a minor scoring perspective, 9mm is easier to get reliable feeding from now that there’s so many good manufacturers of 10-round mags.

 

If you’re going to shoot both Major and Minor...get a .40 and 9mm pistols and take them to the match and actually walk the stages. I’ve never seen a good enough printed stage diagram that actually let you make an informed decision about which PF to shoot. It’s only when you’re actually on the ground looking at the stage layout that you can make the call as to which gun to use. 

 

Finally, the few hotrod SS MINOR guys that I’ve watched shoot have generally stuck with Minor all the time and just run the stages like its Production Division. Most of the time at level 1 and 2 matches that aren’t Single Stack focused....they win! I always look at the scores between SS and Production at those matches and it generally looks like the top Production shooters finish a good bit higher than the highest Major PF Single Stack Shooters. As a result, I’ve decided to just stick with 9mm in SS and try to run and compare myself to the best Production Shooters I know. Of course....ymmv!

 

I think these are all good points and observations. AFAIK the hypothetical SS shooter who uses .40 to be able to declare Major/Minor at the match isn't bringing two different loads with him. He's just shooting 8/10rd of Major PF ammo.

I primarily shoot Production because it's the more popular local division. I did pick up a .40 SS for playing with Major scoring and chose .40 because I only have to stock one size primer. Level 1 and 2 stages seem to be built by Production aware designers and it's pretty natural to break down a stage for 10 rounds.

 

On 1/10/2020 at 8:17 AM, Specialneeds said:

Most of the single stack 9minor race mules are extremely bottom heavy and top light. A large portion are tritoped and internally gutted. Those guys who spent five grand on a custom are most likely going to be in M or GM class.

 

In SS Minor I shoot a light rail tri-topped gun or a standard thin frame government slide gun. I can't tell the difference between them. I think the gamer SS guns, if such things exist, are the 5.4" variety.

[shred]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

they guy that won A1 and A2, shooting minor, runs a stock PM9, which has a heavy-ass slide.

 

Regarding the original question, to me the main advantage of 40 is sharing bullets with limited, and not having the switch the press over to 45. Shooting 40 minor is stupid and unreliable, which is why lots of people suggest it, but pretty much no one actually does it.

 

This.  Minor 40 SS seems like a good idea, but reality intrudes and most people give up on it.  I won A4 with a slightly flat-topped slide, but that's more to help fit the IPSC box and has no noticeable shooting difference versus a regular profile slide. 

 

47 minutes ago, belus said:

In SS Minor I shoot a light rail tri-topped gun or a standard thin frame government slide gun. I can't tell the difference between them. I think the gamer SS guns, if such things exist, are the 5.4" variety.

 

Take a look at IPSC's "Classic" guns for the gamer-specials.  No weight limit there. 

[RogueTactical]

We are working on an atypical USPSA single stack that uses a custom .700 diameter bushing barrel (and yes, it does make weight). One feature requested was the ability to function with 10 rounds for Limited minor. Overall, the ability to load and shoot ten rounds of .40 would allow lots of versatility in which divisions that can be shot. Single stack Major/Minor as well as L10.

 

This does require careful tuning in coordination with Tripp 10 round system mags, which allows a full ten-round magazine to seat.

 

[perttime]

6 hours ago, RogueTactical said:

We are working on an atypical USPSA single stack that uses a custom .700 diameter bushing barrel (and yes, it does make weight). One feature requested was the ability to function with 10 rounds for Limited minor. Overall, the ability to load and shoot ten rounds of .40 would allow lots of versatility in which divisions that can be shot. Single stack Major/Minor as well as L10.

 

This does require careful tuning in coordination with Tripp 10 round system mags, which allows a full ten-round magazine to seat.

 

 

That looks good.

I shoot IPSC Classic division, though, so the long frame is out.

[RogueTactical]

26 minutes ago, perttime said:

 

That looks good.

I shoot IPSC Classic division, though, so the long frame is out.

It’s since been chopped for USPSA/IPSC. Lots of other mods done to make weight. 

[zzt]

14 hours ago, motosapiens said:

Shooting 40 minor is stupid and unreliable, which is why lots of people suggest it, but pretty much no one actually does it.

 

Nonsense.  I shot 40 minor for two seasons in Steel Challenge, and local outlaw matches.  I still shoot it for some outlaw matches.  When I was shooting Limited I shot major 172PF for USPSA and minor 140PF for everything else.  Didn't have to change springs or anything else.  If I thought there was any advantage to it I could have shot 40 minor in USPSA with 100% reliability and confidence.  Making a reliable 40 minor load only requires two working brain cells.

[motosapiens]

6 hours ago, zzt said:

 

Nonsense.  I shot 40 minor for two seasons in Steel Challenge, and local outlaw matches.  I still shoot it for some outlaw matches.  When I was shooting Limited I shot major 172PF for USPSA and minor 140PF for everything else.  Didn't have to change springs or anything else.  If I thought there was any advantage to it I could have shot 40 minor in USPSA with 100% reliability and confidence.  Making a reliable 40 minor load only requires two working brain cells.

I believe you, but every other person I have ever talked to who has tried it has not been able to get it to run 100%.