5% failure on reloads

[Dmatzinger]

I just started reloading , and in my first batch, I have a 5% failure rate.

Background, 

I have two local long term re-loaders who helped guide me down the road to getting started.

I purchased a used Dillon 650 press, (from the classifieds of this forum),

Had my buddy help me run the first batch, (under his direct supervision), 

Components, 

range brass

CCI small pistol primers

Bullseye powder

SNS polymer coated 125's

 

Our first loads are as follows, 

20 rounds at 3.8 gns of powder

20 rounds at 4.0 gns of powder

20 rounds at 4.2 gns of powder

20 rounds at 4.4 grs of powder

 

We took these to the range, and chrono tested them, defined 1071 FPS average was 4.0 gns and that would be my load.

A note to make, is out of these 80 rounds we had two failures, (with clean primer strike and no bang).

 

Back at home, we loaded 1000 rounds as follows

Range brass, (Ultra sonically cleaned, air dried for about >30 days).

CCI small primers from batch H13A201

Alliant Bullseye powder @ 4.0 grns per load, from batch 236X051519

SNS polymer coated 125s

 

Of these rounds, I have now shot about 450 rounds, and have had 21 failures.  in two separate range trips.

First trip out, I shot about 200 rounds and had 9 failures.  upon returning home, and shareing this feed back with others more experienced, the thought was possibly the depth of the primer in the brass.  

 

I measured the primer seat depth from the back of the brass in 400 rounds, and did have variances from 0 mm, (flush with the brass), to .11 mm deep.  Most, >60% were between 0 and .2mm deep.

I created the following experiment, 

loaded 40 rounds into 2 mags at each of the following depths, 

0, 

.1

.2

 

loaded 20 rounds in 2 mags, at .4-.8

loaded 20 rounds in 2 mags at >.8mm

 

I shot each measurement through a different gun, (Both guns were canik tp9sfx), and the failures continued at about 5%, and they were random, could not tie them to depth measurement.  

 

Last experiment prepared, was shooting all the same brass,

20 rounds in Win,

20 rounds in Brasser,

20 rounds in Remington,

this did not modulate the failure %, it remained at about 5%, (3 failures in 60 rounds), 

 

With the randomness, I tried to run this same ammo through a glock 26, and had 1 failure in 20 rounds.

 

I also tried to re-shoot a few of the failures through 2 different firearms, (both Glocks), and no bang.

 

Lastly, we took apart a couple of the failures, and both had powder, one primer was destroyed removing it from brass, the second we were able to get out in tact, and hammer test it.  It did not bang until the third hit with a hammer.

 

The failure mode all 21 rounds is the, clean primer strike, no bang.  the 430ish that fired, had visually the same striker mark on the primer, as the 21 that failed.

 

Hope I have captured all the details, and thank you for reading this far.

 

Any suggestions are GREATLY appreciated.

 

[m700]

I just started reloading , and in my first batch, I have a 5% failure rate.
Background, 
I have two local long term re-loaders who helped guide me down the road to getting started.
I purchased a used Dillon 650 press, (from the classifieds of this forum),
Had my buddy help me run the first batch, (under his direct supervision), 
Components, 
range brass
CCI small pistol primers
Bullseye powder
SNS polymer coated 125's
 
Our first loads are as follows, 
20 rounds at 3.8 gns of powder
20 rounds at 4.0 gns of powder
20 rounds at 4.2 gns of powder
20 rounds at 4.4 grs of powder
 
We took these to the range, and chrono tested them, defined 1071 FPS average was 4.0 gns and that would be my load.
A note to make, is out of these 80 rounds we had two failures, (with clean primer strike and no bang).
 
Back at home, we loaded 1000 rounds as follows
Range brass, (Ultra sonically cleaned, air dried for about >30 days).
CCI small primers from batch H13A201
Alliant Bullseye powder @ 4.0 grns per load, from batch 236X051519
SNS polymer coated 125s
 
Of these rounds, I have now shot about 450 rounds, and have had 21 failures.  in two separate range trips.
First trip out, I shot about 200 rounds and had 9 failures.  upon returning home, and shareing this feed back with others more experienced, the thought was possibly the depth of the primer in the brass.  
 
I measured the primer seat depth from the back of the brass in 400 rounds, and did have variances from 0 mm, (flush with the brass), to .11 mm deep.  Most, >60% were between 0 and .2mm deep.
I created the following experiment, 
loaded 40 rounds into 2 mags at each of the following depths, 
0, 
.1
.2
 
loaded 20 rounds in 2 mags, at .4-.8
loaded 20 rounds in 2 mags at >.8mm
 
I shot each measurement through a different gun, (Both guns were canik tp9sfx), and the failures continued at about 5%, and they were random, could not tie them to depth measurement.  
 
Last experiment prepared, was shooting all the same brass,
20 rounds in Win,
20 rounds in Brasser,
20 rounds in Remington,
this did not modulate the failure %, it remained at about 5%, (3 failures in 60 rounds), 
 
With the randomness, I tried to run this same ammo through a glock 26, and had 1 failure in 20 rounds.
 
I also tried to re-shoot a few of the failures through 2 different firearms, (both Glocks), and no bang.
 
Lastly, we took apart a couple of the failures, and both had powder, one primer was destroyed removing it from brass, the second we were able to get out in tact, and hammer test it.  It did not bang until the third hit with a hammer.
 
The failure mode all 21 rounds is the, clean primer strike, no bang.  the 430ish that fired, had visually the same striker mark on the primer, as the 21 that failed.
 
Hope I have captured all the details, and thank you for reading this far.
 
Any suggestions are GREATLY appreciated.
 

Ouch, I would say it's a bad batch of primers. As I was reading i thought maybe it's the gun but once you started testing in other guns that eliminated that.

I've loaded cci only for years numbering close to 300k and have had 0 failure aside from some backwards. And some crushed on 223

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[travail]

Bad primers is my best guess as well. Never had an issue with going bang with primer height variances. Just to rule out the blasters, are they stock or have they had trigger work done? Striker fired don't seem to set off all primers with low trigger weights from my experience.

[Dmatzinger]

one bone stock, one with aftermarket trigger, but failures are in both at about the same rate

[MILDOTS]

I had a 2011 that had that problem and changed tp federal primers problem solved (40) an extra long firing pin also helped when I went back to Winchester primers. I had some CCI primers I wanted to use up my TTI Glock didn’t like those went back to Winchester, problem solved every gun is different. I would say there is nothing wrong with your.reloading the is Glock a9mm .

[HesedTech]

You didn’t mention if your guns have non-stock light hammer/striker springs. If so, CCI primers should be pushed all the way in, flush isn’t enough. 
 

Proven best primers deeply seated for light sprung guns, Federal and then Winchester.

 

The only way to set a 650 for deeper primers is to shim the primer punch up a bit. Search the forum for pictures.  

 

of course there are other opinions. 
 

Good luck with your quest. 

[Khaot1c]

I save the CCI for my 1911s with a 19# hammer spring. I use Winchester for the 2011s with a 17# and Remington primers for all things 9mm. I don't shoot many Glocks anymore but the couple I do shoot have 4.5# strike springs.

All my primers get seated just below flush.

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[wolffy1876]

Before doing any changes to guns or press,  I’d try different primers.  Different batch and/or brand.

[Furrly]

That's why I never use CCI primers anymore .. Gave up on them a few years ago. , now I only shot Win for practice ammo, federal for match ammo... And I've also had very good results with Fiocchi primers that I shot in my open guns.. 

Non of these have given me any issues that you have mentioned above, considering That I had, in numerous occasions, those same issues with CCI primers.. 

[RangerTrace]

I've used more CCI small pistol primers than anything else and exclusively since I got my RF100.  I've never had a single failure, period.  

[Smitty79]

I'm one of the guys who's been helping the OP.    A point he missed is that we tried to fire several of the failed rounds several times.    None of them went back on restrike.    When I was running harder primers on my lightly sprung CZ, they always went bang on the second try.

 

[zzt]

I suspect the primers were not seated fully.  A friend had the same problem and thought he had a bad batch of primers.  I told him to put it back in the gun and fire,  Nothing.  Again. nothing.  Again.  bang.  All of his supposedly dud rounds went off after one or more primer strikes.  The first strike actually pushes the primer in farther. when enough strikes have occurred to fully seat the primer it will go off.

 

The only time I've had a problem with CCI500 primers was with a used Open gun I bought.  Light strikes.  The previous owner used a 15lb mainspring and a Ti firing pin.  Swapped them out for a 17 lb MS and a SS firing pin and the problem vanished.

 

I buy CCI primers 15,000 at a time.  That lasts a tad over a year.  I literally cannot remember the last time I had a CCI primer failure.  I had a couple with WSP, plus there are often out of round and clog the primer tube filler port.  That's why I switched to CCI for large and small. 

[AHI]

10 hours ago, Dmatzinger said:

(Ultra sonically cleaned, air dried for about >30 days)

Did you remove the primers before you cleaned the cases?

IF not there's your problem.

[Smitty79]

6 minutes ago, AHI said:

Did you remove the primers before you cleaned the cases?

IF not there's your problem.

 

I don't understand this.   The cases were cleaned, then dried, then deprimed and loaded.   Why would that cause failures?

[AHI]

water gets trapped in the old primer will not dry out .

If you do a little searching you will find this has been discussed several times.

Look for discussions like fullpower squibs/ misfires etc. They all have one thing in common

wet cleaned with primers still in the cases  . manny different methods of drying but the problem

still persist. until the primers are removed then the cases will fully dry. and their problem went away.

I am sure someone will come along and dispute what i've said .

[4n2t0]

As long as they're thoroughly dried it shouldn't be a problem. I mostly air dry my brass and I've never experienced any problems whatsoever.

 

P.S.  I don't have any type of crazy "drying protocol". In the summer I air dry outside for a few hours and the brass is completely dry. During the winter I put them on a towel in the basement near the furnace and they're dry within a couple of days. If I'm in a rush I'll fill a cookie tray with brass, pop it in the oven and with 20 minutes they're ready to load.

Edited November 19, 2019 by 4n2t0

[GregJ]

41 minutes ago, AHI said:

Did you remove the primers before you cleaned the cases?

IF not there's your problem.

 

I agree with this.  Some time ago I tried wet tumbling with SS pins, with the primers in.  I thought I had air dried them long enough (week or so), but I had a LOT of misfires, weak loads, etc.  I even had a squib, didnt realize it, and would up ruining a barrel and bushing.  Wet tumbling with primers in requires a very good drying protocol.  I started using a FA brass hydrator/dryer for 90 min and the issue went away.  However, I did have another issue due to wet tumbling with the primers in, the primer residue will tend to glue the primers in, which makes them very difficult to get out.  In my case, I process my brass on an AB driven 1050, and was getting a LOT of primer pull backs.  Went back to media tumbling and the pull backs almost completely eliminated.  

[m700]

Air drying is difficult I used to do this when I first started wet. I would use a dry towel and dump brass in it then pretend I was polishing a bowling ball. then switch it to a new dry towel and lay it out with a fan on it for a day or so.

 

A dehydrator turned drying into a 2 hour event. Just dont get the lyman one, I have an older hornady that works great. I was excited for the lyman as it holds 2000 9mm but it takes forever.

 

Im not 100% drying is the issue 30 days should do the trick unless your drying in a really damp basement. In which case that itself could be your issue.

 

Hopefully you just bought 1000. Maybe for the next grab them from a different source if you are sticking with cci or switch entirely. but I dont think its a cci problem I think its a batch problem.

 

With all that said this 1000 isn't a total waste. just dont use them for competition.

[4n2t0]

Is there any chance that the primers themselves were contaminated prior to loading?

[Hi-Power Jack]

12 hours ago, m700 said:

I've loaded CCI close to 300k and have had 0 failure 

 

I cannot imagine it's the primers.

 

Bet it's either the gun (firing pin springs or firing pin) or using lubrication and

not drying it sufficiently before loading the primer.

 

My BHP fires about 50% of Russian primers, but my TruBor will fire 100% of them.

 

A third possibility is that the old, fired primers were never removed from the case,

and the powder filled and bullet seated.   That primer will Never go off.

 

I'd suspect Anything before I'd suspect the primers.

 

BUT, it's worth trying another brand of primers, just in case.     

[AHI]

Try this decap 200ish cases. Then put them in your oven at it lowest setting(150deg)

for a hour /stir them around a couple times say every 20min. then dump them out on a dry

towel let them cool to room temp (this may take 30min) then load. see if problem goes away.

[ToddKS]

The fact that there is no bang on a second or third attempt would support the possibility that the primers are not getting seated fully.  You indicate that some are not below flush that would also support that theory.

 

I have personally loaded CCI primers in 9mm for many years without issue.  That said a bad box is always possible.  If you have another box or another brand it would be worth changing primers just to exclude the possibility.

 

You say that you dried the brass for 30 days, was that in an open pan or did the container have a lid on it.  Cleaning with the primer in should not be a problem if properly air dried.

[AHI]

Have seen cases that were wet cleaned then dried put into storage (sealed container ) that had water in them 

6 months later. 

[m700]

I think you need air movement. If the cases sit they evaporate much better if theres a fan on them. or better yet heat and fan

[AHI]

not my cases (ffl6) I load ammo for several competition shooters they provide their own clean brass

I will not load wet cleaned brass that has not had the primers removed because of this.