Has anyone ever been hurt by a 180 violation ?

[Hi-Power Jack]

Not sure where to put this discussion, so pls move to wherever it actually belongs.

 

I have seen people break the 180 a few times in my 30 years of competitive shooting

(and one was more of a breaking the 220),

 

BUT,

 

I don't recall ever hearing of anyone who was injured because someone broke

the 180 ???   Don't believe I've ever read here at BE over the past decade of

anyone actually getting hurt by someone else breaking the 180.   ???

 

Do you ?

 

No reason to get too specific, or detailed.   Just wondering if anyone has ever

heard of anyone getting hurt by a 180 ?   No reason for many details - let's

assume no one was ever seriously hurt since this is such a safe sport the

way we operate.  

 

BUT, even a scratch ?   Anyone ever get "scratched"  by

a 180 violation ?

 

 

[IHAVEGAS]

I've lost a few years of my life because of  two really scary ones when I was running new shooters if that matters. One bad enough (the guy had me center mass with his finger in the trigger guard) that I was scared to yell stop and was just kind of 'whoa whoa whoa, ok now,  relax , ok now, point the gun at the ground ' . 

[teros135]

What's your point?  Why are you asking?

[Hi-Power Jack]

2 hours ago, teros135 said:

 Why are you asking?

 

I've heard about accidents while drawing/holstering, and accidents shooting over

a berm, and accidents with a ricochet, and an "almost" with someone being down

range who no one (including the RO and shooter) knew were there.

 

BUT, I've NEVER heard of a slight accident (a scratch) because of breaking the 180 rule.

 

Just wondering if anyone here has ever experienced such a problem.  Am I being

kept in the dark here ?

 

p.s.  ihavegas, I've also seen the inside of a muzzle - your incident is much scarier

        than mine, but it was awfully uncomfortable.   I have moved my position a few

        times and hit the ground once, so far, in 30 years.   BUT, still haven't heard of

        any incident that caused a scratch.

[Nathanb]

I pulled a hammy diving out of the way....

[Gary Stevens]

We try to employ the belt and suspenders model when it comes to safety.

 

If you don't allow the gun to break the 180, but you have your finger on the trigger and AD then no blood.

 

If you do allow the gun to break the 180, but you do not have your finger on the trigger, then no AD and no blood.

 

It normally takes two or more violations of the basic safety rules to have a real problem.

 

I think that no one has been hurt due to a 180 break is a testimony to our safety regiment.

Edited March 15, 2019 by Gary Stevens

[Boudreaux78]

I have witnessed someone seriously hurt but a 180 violation. Will not post details, just suffice to say that it wasn’t pretty. If the 180 violation hadn’t occurred with a finger in the trigger guard while moving, the incident wouldn’t have happened!

[Part_time_redneck]

Fortunately I've never witnessed a flesh & blood injury. However at a local match last year I was with the rest of the squad in the gallery behind the stage loading mags. When I head "stop" I looked up and had a spectacular view of the muzzle end of a Glock. Perfect sight alignment. While no shooter suffered any injury, I unfortunately can't say the same for my boxers. They will be missed. 

[Loudgp]

9 minutes ago, Part_time_redneck said:

Fortunately I've never witnessed a flesh & blood injury. However at a local match last year I was with the rest of the squad in the gallery behind the stage loading mags. When I head "stop" I looked up and had a spectacular view of the muzzle end of a Glock. Perfect sight alignment. While no shooter suffered any injury, I unfortunately can't say the same for my boxers. They will be missed. 

I dq'd a friend at a major match for something similar. he turned to run across stage and muzzle at a camera man that was at his 180. that was a crappy day, but safety first... 

[Balakay]

On 3/15/2019 at 11:43 AM, Gary Stevens said:

We try to employ the belt and suspenders model when it comes to safety.

 

If you don't allow the gun to break the 180, but you have your finger on the trigger and AD then no blood.

 

If you do allow the gun to break the 180, but you do not have your finger on the trigger, then no AD and no blood.

 

It normally takes two or more violations of the basic safety rules to have a real problem.

 

I think that no one has been hurt due to a 180 break is a testimony to our safety regiment.

This.  No one has probably been hurt by a shot going over the berm into a conservation area but it is still a DQ

[lstange]

I think this counts. Don't try to catch a falling gun.

[Bhayden]

Falling guns, like knives have no handles....

[IHAVEGAS]

7 hours ago, Balakay said:

This.  No one has probably been hurt by a shot going over the berm into a conservation area but it is still a DQ

 

Evansville Indiana, 9mm round made it to the highway and through a car window and into a ladies shoulder. Was not fatal but was harmful, details were published but it has been too far back for me to remember all of them.

[Trentmopar]

I hate the 180 rule because so many people try to set up their stages to get you to break it. If we are truly concerned about safety in this sport then keep targets closer to 160 so that it isn't a temptation.   My thoughts have always been DON"T PLACE TARGETS NEAR 180!!!  

[HesedTech]

15 hours ago, Trentmopar said:

I hate the 180 rule because so many people try to set up their stages to get you to break it. If we are truly concerned about safety in this sport then keep targets closer to 160 so that it isn't a temptation.   My thoughts have always been DON"T PLACE TARGETS NEAR 180!!!  

 

Really?

 

USPSA rules specifically mention such things. 

 

"But why do stages need to prevent 180 traps or block views of targets? The competitor should just know not to shoot them, right? Well, we have rule 2.1.4 that says: “Targets must be arranged so that shooting at them on an ‘as and when visible’ basis will not cause competitors to breach safe angles of fire.” 

https://nroi.org/nroi-tips/nroi-tips-the-180/#more-727

 

"2.1.4  Target Locations – When a course is constructed to include target locations other than immediately downrange, organizers and officials must protect or restrict surrounding areas to which competitors, officials or spectators have access. Each competitor must be allowed to solve the competitive problem in his own way and must not be hindered by being forced to act in any manner which might cause unsafe action. Targets must be arranged so that shooting at them on an “as and when visible” basis will not cause competitors to breach safe angles of fire."

[redpillregret]

 
Really?
 
USPSA rules specifically mention such things. 
 
"But why do stages need to prevent 180 traps or block views of targets? The competitor should just know not to shoot them, right? Well, we have rule 2.1.4 that says: “Targets must be arranged so that shooting at them on an ‘as and when visible’ basis will not cause competitors to breach safe angles of fire.” 
https://nroi.org/nroi-tips/nroi-tips-the-180/#more-727
 
"2.1.4  Target Locations – When a course is constructed to include target locations other than immediately downrange, organizers and officials must protect or restrict surrounding areas to which competitors, officials or spectators have access. Each competitor must be allowed to solve the competitive problem in his own way and must not be hindered by being forced to act in any manner which might cause unsafe action. Targets must be arranged so that shooting at them on an “as and when visible” basis will not cause competitors to breach safe angles of fire."

It may be in the rules, but that doesn’t mean that’s the way it’s practiced.


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[Joe4d]

the 180's I have seen were usually moving right to left, especially while reloading,
Too cool for school speed reholsterers that missed and ended up backwards.
folks engaging side berm targets that can run faster than they can shoot.

[Hi-Power Jack]

At one shoot, the target was at the 179 degree mark, but the berm to that side

clearly extended to about 230 degrees.

 

One young lady was DQ'd for breaking the 180  …..

 

Barely.

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, Joe4d said:

the 180's I have seen were usually moving right to left, especially while reloading,
Too cool for school speed reholsterers that missed and ended up backwards.
folks engaging side berm targets that can run faster than they can shoot.

Agreed. I rarely see an index that breaks the 180. It’s almost always a reload situation.

[gerritm]

I shot a UML 3-gun match a couple of weeks ago and the first steel target in a set to the left shot with PCC or shotgun was at exactly 181 degrees for a right handed shooter & 179 for left handed. Big discussion by RO & scorekeeper  cause I am left handed but decided it was OK. Should never have been put there, no reason, move it 1 foot & takes that trap out. 

 

gerritm

[Hi-Power Jack]

3 hours ago, gerritm said:

  steel target was at exactly 181 degrees for a right handed shooter

 

Did anyone get DQ'd for that steel target ?

[gerritm]

Not sure about other squads, all of us on our squad are very experienced, but with our squad's walk thru there happened to be a paint mark on the ground & RO told all to shoot it from this mark to be OK. Me being the only odd ball lefty gamed it slightly causing the discussion. RO did not feel I broke the 180, score keeper sitting on bench called it.

 

In the MD's defense there was another shooting position about 10 feet away where you could have shot it, but that would have been the only steel necessary to shoot from there. Being a UML match he wanted to accommodate the 2-gun pistol shooters with that extra position.  No other targets needed to be shot from that position. No one from our squad moved there. 

 

gerritm

[HesedTech]

Here's what I don't get, some here are saying the targets are within 1 degree, yes you all said 1 degree of the 180. That's so close it would be hard to measure with proper survey equipment. But, if what you say is true during the walk through I would have first of all protested the stage and either had it fixed or if later in the match thrown out. Those numbers you are posting clearly violate the USPSA rule. And lest we forget the matches are put on for the competitors and not the MD or organizers.

 

But I am betting the actual angles are a bit greater than 1 degree and then what experienced shooters do is ASK the RO where the 180 fault would be. I see this happen at all major matches and many local ones. 

 

The moral of the story is this, if a MD or organizer has purposely set up a "180" trap to potentially DQ competitors he/she is in violation of both the rules and the intent of USPSA competition and should be informed of such. Now if the course challenges a shooter in their movement with no attempt at trapping them into a DQ, well then it is the shooter's fault for disregarding the course in their planning and execution.

 

Of course evil does reside in the hearts of some...  

[redpillregret]

Here's what I don't get, some here are saying the targets are within 1 degree, yes you all said 1 degree of the 180. That's so close it would be hard to measure with proper survey equipment. But, if what you say is true during the walk through I would have first of all protested the stage and either had it fixed or if later in the match thrown out. Those numbers you are posting clearly violate the USPSA rule. And lest we forget the matches are put on for the competitors and not the MD or organizers.

 

But I am betting the actual angles are a bit greater than 1 degree and then what experienced shooters do is ASK the RO where the 180 fault would be. I see this happen at all major matches and many local ones. 

 

The moral of the story is this, if a MD or organizer has purposely set up a "180" trap to potentially DQ competitors he/she is in violation of both the rules and the intent of USPSA competition and should be informed of such. Now if the course challenges a shooter in their movement with no attempt at trapping them into a DQ, well then it is the shooter's fault for disregarding the course in their planning and execution.

 

Of course evil does reside in the hearts of some...  [emoji2955]

 

 

Heh, I’ve asked local MDs to define their 180. When I did, they decided to move targets and/or throw out the stage. No reason to continue to reinforce that the rules prevent them to intentionally trap people to break 180s, we get that, but it still happens. I literally heard a dude say “I designed this stage to make you watch your 180! I wanna DQ a few of you fast guys!”

 

 

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[Trentmopar]

26 minutes ago, redpillregret said:

 

 

Heh, I’ve asked local MDs to define their 180. When I did, they decided to move targets and/or throw out the stage. No reason to continue to reinforce that the rules prevent them to intentionally trap people to break 180s, we get that, but it still happens. I literally heard a dude say “I designed this stage to make you watch your 180! I wanna DQ a few of you fast guys!”

 

 

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That’s what I mean when I say I hate the 180 rule.  It’s these type of guys that purposely try to get you in trouble that make it a hassle.  Cause if you complain they get upset or say that you just like to game it or run too fast.  I JUST WANT TO SHOOT!  Set things up in a safe but fun array and let’s shoot don’t try to mess with people especially since it really affect new shooters that may not come back if they don’t like the atmosphere or technicalities.