HCH Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 Did we ever figure out what constitutes “holstering” and when to stop a shooter who is in violation of 10.5.11? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 If you can stop an unsafe act make an attempt to stop it. If you can't stop it, the rulebook will tell you what to do. We don't play "got you games" by letting someone complete an unsafe act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 Loaded gun starts... -- Competitor does not insert a mag or chamber a round. Gun is not loaded per start condition. Repeat MR until gun is loaded, in some compliant manner. Proceed with process and ensure competitor assumes specified start position. -- Competitor inserts mag, chambers a round, removes the "Barney" mag and places it in their preferred place, and neglects to insert a fresh, loaded magazine. Gun is loaded and complies with the stated start condition. Competitor then assumes specified start position. You as the RO see all of this, but cannot say anything. Move on to AYR and start signal. -- Competitor inserts mag and does not chamber a round. This complies with the stated start condition. Competitor assumes specified start position. You as the RO see all of this, but cannot say anything. Move on to AYR and start signal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 36 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said: Loaded gun starts... -- Competitor does not insert a mag or chamber a round. Gun is not loaded per start condition. Repeat MR until gun is loaded, in some compliant manner. Proceed with process and ensure competitor assumes specified start position. -- Competitor inserts mag, chambers a round, removes the "Barney" mag and places it in their preferred place, and neglects to insert a fresh, loaded magazine. Gun is loaded and complies with the stated start condition. Competitor then assumes specified start position. You as the RO see all of this, but cannot say anything. Move on to AYR and start signal. -- Competitor inserts mag and does not chamber a round. This complies with the stated start condition. Competitor assumes specified start position. You as the RO see all of this, but cannot say anything. Move on to AYR and start signal. This is my thinking exactly, thanks for articulating it much better than I have Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 39 minutes ago, RJH said: This is my thinking exactly, thanks for articulating it much better than I have Yep, well articulated OPINION. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 19 hours ago, RJH said: RJH...maybe this will shed some light: rule book on WSB: A written stage briefing approved by the Range Master must be posted at each course of fire prior to commencement of the match. This briefing will take precedence over any course of fire information published or otherwise communicated to competitors in advance of the match, and it must provide the following minimum information: — Scoring Method — Targets (type & number) — Minimum number of rounds — The firearm ready condition — Start position (this should be demonstrated by a Range Officer) — Time starts (audible or visual signal) — Procedure notice there are two separate areas of information... one for firearms ready condition and one for start position... the RO is responsible to start the competitor after they are in the ready position...firearms ready condition is on the competitor as to how their firearms is ready as long as it complies with the WSB... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 6 minutes ago, Sarge said: Yep, well articulated OPINION. ? Are you indicating that what I wrote is not supported by the rulebook? If I missed something, please let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 7 minutes ago, Sarge said: Yep, well articulated OPINION. And an opinion that is backed up by the rules, which I have pointed out, if you are aware of rules that state otherwise please point them out. I have not seen any to contradict what ima45dv8 posted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, racerba said: RJH...maybe this will shed some light: rule book on WSB: A written stage briefing approved by the Range Master must be posted at each course of fire prior to commencement of the match. This briefing will take precedence over any course of fire information published or otherwise communicated to competitors in advance of the match, and it must provide the following minimum information: — Scoring Method — Targets (type & number) — Minimum number of rounds — The firearm ready condition — Start position (this should be demonstrated by a Range Officer) — Time starts (audible or visual signal) — Procedure notice there are two separate areas of information... one for firearms ready condition and one for start position... the RO is responsible to start the competitor after they are in the ready position...firearms ready condition is on the competitor as to how their firearms is ready as long as it complies with the WSB... Everything ima45dv8 posted is supported by the rules. I have read them about 1 millions times, if i am missing something please point out the rule that supports it, cause i ain't seen it. Look under what MUST happen at make ready. 8.3.1 i think, but I don't have the rule book in front of me right now, and contrary to some opinions, my phone sucks for looking at the rulebook Edited February 6, 2019 by RJH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 Ok here is a clarification, backed up by the rules and this will be assuming a loaded start; The ready condition is eye and ear pro on and the gun loaded as per wsb, those requirements MUST be met then competitor can take the start position. It is is in the rules, look it up. What i cannot find in the rules is any reference to allowing a competitor to disregard the handgun ready condition in the wsb, and be allowed to take the start position. Don't call out 8.1, it only talks of a chambered round, it says NOTHING about a loaded gun. Please offer your opinion backed by rules, if you can great, but I don't think it is going to happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 48 minutes ago, racerba said: RJH...maybe this will shed some light: rule book on WSB: A written stage briefing approved by the Range Master must be posted at each course of fire prior to commencement of the match. This briefing will take precedence over any course of fire information published or otherwise communicated to competitors in advance of the match, and it must provide the following minimum information: — Scoring Method — Targets (type & number) — Minimum number of rounds — The firearm ready condition — Start position (this should be demonstrated by a Range Officer) — Time starts (audible or visual signal) — Procedure notice there are two separate areas of information... one for firearms ready condition and one for start position... the RO is responsible to start the competitor after they are in the ready position...firearms ready condition is on the competitor as to how their firearms is ready as long as it complies with the WSB... Absolutely correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 6 minutes ago, Sarge said: Absolutely correct Read my above post and answer the question with the rule quoted, i don't think you can...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 15 minutes ago, RJH said: Ok here is a clarification, backed up by the rules and this will be assuming a loaded start; The ready condition is eye and ear pro on and the gun loaded as per wsb, those requirements MUST be met then competitor can take the start position. It is is in the rules, look it up. What i cannot find in the rules is any reference to allowing a competitor to disregard the handgun ready condition in the wsb, and be allowed to take the start position. Don't call out 8.1, it only talks of a chambered round, it says NOTHING about a loaded gun. Please offer your opinion backed by rules, if you can great, but I don't think it is going to happen rule book: 8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face downrange, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and hearing protection, and prepare the firearm in accordance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the specified start position. The Range Officer will not proceed with any further range commands until the competitor is still and is in the correct start position. No where does it say that the WSB conditions MUST be met... It says "under the direct supervision..." meaning that the RO make sure they ready the firearms in a safe manner... It does not say RO is to make sure competitor's handgun/firearm is ready... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickBlasta Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 1 minute ago, racerba said: rule book: 8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face downrange, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and hearing protection, and prepare the firearm in accordance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the specified start position. The Range Officer will not proceed with any further range commands until the competitor is still and is in the correct start position. No where does it say that the WSB conditions MUST be met... It says "under the direct supervision..." meaning that the RO make sure they ready the firearms in a safe manner... It does not say RO is to make sure competitor's handgun/firearm is ready... It literally says it in the text you quoted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 Just now, racerba said: rule book: 8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face downrange, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and hearing protection, and prepare the firearm in accordance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the specified start position. The Range Officer will not proceed with any further range commands until the competitor is still and is in the correct start position. No where does it say that the WSB conditions MUST be met... It says "under the direct supervision..." meaning that the RO make sure they ready the firearms in a safe manner... It does not say RO is to make sure competitor's handgun/firearm is ready... You really should reread what you posted, it absolutely says that must make the firearm ready in compliance with the wsb. The commas indicate a continued thought. i.e. they MUST put in eye pro, MUST put in ear pro, MUST get the handgun ready i accordance with the wsb. Then they get in the start position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 3 minutes ago, NickBlasta said: It literally says it in the text you quoted. Sometimes I wonder if English is the first language around here haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 Please bear in mind that on a loaded gun start, the RO is not responsible to ensure that the gun has both a loaded magazine inserted and a loaded chamber. Either of those situations meet the requirement for a loaded gun. Ammo inserted, in any fashion, meets that requirement. And has already been pointed out several times, the RO cannot direct the competitor to rectify the "half-loaded" gun condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 16 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said: Please bear in mind that on a loaded gun start, the RO is not responsible to ensure that the gun has both a loaded magazine inserted and a loaded chamber. Either of those situations meet the requirement for a loaded gun. Ammo inserted, in any fashion, meets that requirement. And has already been pointed out several times, the RO cannot direct the competitor to rectify the "half-loaded" gun condition. Yep, and that is 100percent supported by the rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 1 hour ago, ima45dv8 said: Please bear in mind that on a loaded gun start, the RO is not responsible to ensure that the gun has both a loaded magazine inserted and a loaded chamber. Either of those situations meet the requirement for a loaded gun. Ammo inserted, in any fashion, meets that requirement. And has already been pointed out several times, the RO cannot direct the competitor to rectify the "half-loaded" gun condition. But what if the WSB says the firearm ready condition is "gun loaded with a round in the chamber" and a competitor inserts a mag at make ready, but forgets to chamber a round? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 2 hours ago, RJH said: Read my above post and answer the question with the rule quoted, i don't think you can...... I have read all I care to. My reading tells me I can’t start a shooter unless he is in the correct start position. It doesn’t say I can’t start him for being dumb and not loading his gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Sarge said: I have read all I care to. My reading tells me I can’t start a shooter unless he is in the correct start position. It doesn’t say I can’t start him for being dumb and not loading his gun. What about loading his/her gun for an unloaded start? if it is an unloaded start, NO ammo can be ANYWHERE in the gun. If it’s a LOADED start SOME ammo has to be SOMEWHERE in the gun. Edited February 7, 2019 by HCH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Southpaw said: But what if the WSB says the firearm ready condition is "gun loaded with a round in the chamber" and a competitor inserts a mag at make ready, but forgets to chamber a round? I don't think I've ever seen one worded just like that. Sounds like it would be an attempt to write an idiot-proof WSB. I guess I'd have to switch into Nanny-Mode as dictated by the stage designer and tell them to chamber a round. But I wouldn't like it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 43 minutes ago, HCH said: What about loading his/her gun for an unloaded start? if it is an unloaded start, NO ammo can be ANYWHERE in the gun. If it’s a LOADED start SOME ammo has to be SOMEWHERE in the gun. And like I said, loading for an unloaded start would be an advantage so I would remind him unloaded start. But not loading when he should falls under the shooter is responsible for his gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Sarge said: I have read all I care to. My reading tells me I can’t start a shooter unless he is in the correct start position. It doesn’t say I can’t start him for being dumb and not loading his gun. I understand this is your opinion, i also understand that you still have never quoted a rule to support it. Interestingly enough, i have shown three rules that support my opinion. I will stick with what the rule book actually says and not what i feel it should say. And actually in the same sentence that is says a shooter must have eye and ear pro before they get in the start position, it says that their handgun must be in accordance with the wsb Edited February 7, 2019 by RJH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egd5 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 This is the energizer bunny of threads. It keeps going and going and going...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now