Holstering

[Sarge]

5 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

All seems counter to everything else being on the shooter if they choose a disadvantageous starting position.

In sarge's example if the WSB says gun load and holstered and all mags on belt he could not have then let the guy start (if he didn't have the one mag in his pocket that is).

Why do ROs need to cater to someone not getting an advantage because of their own mistake?

Open the rule book and read it 10 times. Then you will almost know most of the pertinent rules. IF it said all mags on belt he can still load from a pocket. There is a difference between the beginning of a COF(make ready) and starting(beep)

[IHAVEGAS]

34 minutes ago, Sarge said:

They must be in the correct start position to start so the RO has to make sure that happens but the rest is on the shooter. NOW, if it is a brand new shooter at a level one and he doesn't have ammo on his belt then the rules allow assistance and I would probably ask him if he has enough ammo to complete the stage.  But I started a seasoned shooter once at a level II who had no mags on his belt. Start mag was in his pocket. That was painful to watch but it is what it is.

 

Agree that if the problem is not caught in time then the problem is all on the shooter. I do not see anything in the rules that would prohibit an r.o. telling a shooter he had a problem, at any match level, as long as the problem was noted prior to "make ready". Unless I learn that I am wrong about what is allowed, I'm going to warn the shooter about the problem rather than say make ready. 

[broadside72]

Open the rule book and read it 10 times. Then you will almost know most of the pertinent rules. IF it said all mags on belt he can still load from a pocket. There is a difference between the beginning of a COF(make ready) and starting(beep)

I get that. The rules are the to prevent unfair advantages. We penalize for things that become an advantage (not all foot faults are an advantage for example) but it seems like we need to not allow a shooter to put themselves at a disadvantage on their own accord at the start. Like my example of loaded and holstered specified in the WSB. If the shooter doesn't load his gun, it's that the ROs problem and he/she can't ask Are You Ready?

Sorry for diverging from the holstering topic.

[Gary Stevens]

The RO gives the an opportunity at Are you Ready to say no I forgot to load my weapon. Absent a negative reply the next words can only be Stand-by.

 

Are you saying that the RO should disregard the rules and tell the shooter they failed to load?

[teros135]

It seems that some folks want to be coaches or teachers (or parents) instead of ROs.  That's fine, do those things (at the proper time and place) but keep them separate from officiating at a match, where you don't want to creating an unfair advantage for those who don't get the coaching.   

[RJH]

4 minutes ago, teros135 said:

It seems that some folks want to be coaches or teachers (or parents) instead of ROs.  That's fine, do those things (at the proper time and place) but keep them separate from officiating at a match, where you don't want to creating an unfair advantage for those who don't get the coaching.   

 

I think this is the crux of it right here. Since there is no way to know how every competitor makes ready and what their gear should  look like when they are ready, the ro cannot be responsible for the competitors equipment. And since there is no way to know everyones equipment,  the only fair thing to do, is to actually do nothing.  I bet this may be part of the reason it is now "make ready " and no longer "load and make ready". Maybe Gary  would have some insite on that?

[IHAVEGAS]

6 minutes ago, teros135 said:

It seems that some folks want to be coaches or teachers (or parents) instead of ROs.  That's fine, do those things (at the proper time and place) but keep them separate from officiating at a match, where you don't want to creating an unfair advantage for those who don't get the coaching.   

 

Most likely the unfair advantage was whatever happened that got the shooter out of normal sequence and contributed to him/her forgetting mags. It is a game that we play for fun, so a shooter or official or bystander that keeps a person from having a bad day (within the rules) is not going to get a frown from me. 

[teros135]

And participation trophies for everyone!  

[IHAVEGAS]

4 minutes ago, teros135 said:

And participation trophies for everyone!  

 

Or, people could win or lose based on shooting skill. 

 

 

[teros135]

18 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Or, people could win or lose based on shooting skill. 

 

 

 

This.  Of course.  Come wearing your big boy/girl pants and own your performance, even when you forgot something.  

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Agree that if the problem is not caught in time then the problem is all on the shooter. I do not see anything in the rules that would prohibit an r.o. telling a shooter he had a problem, at any match level, as long as the problem was noted prior to "make ready". Unless I learn that I am wrong about what is allowed, I'm going to warn the shooter about the problem rather than say make ready. 

What if they don’t load the mags and they are empty on his belt? Is that my fault too?

Am I supposed to make sure his dot is on? At some point this has to fall outside the RO’s duties. 

  The only thing I have done is ask a shooter if he needs the muffs on his ears that is hanging on his belt even though he already had plugs in. And even that was not my responsibility since he did have plugs in.

[Sarge]

57 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Most likely the unfair advantage was whatever happened that got the shooter out of normal sequence and contributed to him/her forgetting mags. It is a game that we play for fun, so a shooter or official or bystander that keeps a person from having a bad day (within the rules) is not going to get a frown from me. 

Or the shooter looking at his video over and over and forgetting to load up for next stage. Not my job to check on his match management between stages.

[IHAVEGAS]

1 minute ago, Sarge said:

What if they don’t load the mags and they are empty on his belt? Is that my fault too?

 

2 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

Agree that if the problem is not caught in time then the problem is all on the shooter. 

 

I see helping out each other, when you see opportunity and within the rules, as good sportsmanship and camaraderie. For others that see it differently, ok. 

[broadside72]

19 hours ago, broadside72 said:

While holstering is not defined, it may be worthwhile to consider it to be "breaking the envelope of the holster" with the firearm, intentionally or otherwise.   

 

If you are breaking the envelope of the holster without intending to holster the firearm where you are "safe" and end being holstered then you have possibly swept yourself anyway.

 

 

back on topic....

[Gary Stevens]

2 hours ago, RJH said:

 

I think this is the crux of it right here. Since there is no way to know how every competitor makes ready and what their gear should  look like when they are ready, the ro cannot be responsible for the competitors equipment. And since there is no way to know everyones equipment,  the only fair thing to do, is to actually do nothing.  I bet this may be part of the reason it is now "make ready " and no longer "load and make ready". Maybe Gary  would have some insite on that?

 

It was to cut down on the confusion on an unloaded gun start.

[NickBlasta]

4 hours ago, broadside72 said:

I get that. The rules are the to prevent unfair advantages. We penalize for things that become an advantage (not all foot faults are an advantage for example) but it seems like we need to not allow a shooter to put themselves at a disadvantage on their own accord at the start. Like my example of loaded and holstered specified in the WSB. If the shooter doesn't load his gun, it's that the ROs problem and he/she can't ask Are You Ready?

Sorry for diverging from the holstering topic.

 

The gun must be loaded on a loaded start or the competitor is also not in the start position.

 

You must have SOME ammo in the gun to be "loaded". A magazine must be inserted or a round must be chambered. 8.1 tells us to not instruct the competitor to rack the slide if they forget.

A3 - Loaded - A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm.

 

If someone forgets to insert a magazine or chamber a round at all, they must be instructed to comply with the start position.

[Gary Stevens]

15 minutes ago, NickBlasta said:

 

The gun must be loaded on a loaded start or the competitor is also not in the start position.

 

You must have SOME ammo in the gun to be "loaded". A magazine must be inserted or a round must be chambered. 8.1 tells us to not instruct the competitor to rack the slide if they forget.

A3 - Loaded - A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm.

 

If someone forgets to insert a magazine or chamber a round at all, they must be instructed to comply with the start position.

 

If they stand there and do nothing, I'll repeat the MR command. If they chamber a round they are loaded per the rulebook. Likewise if they insert a loaded magazine, but do not chamber a round they are loaded per the rulebook. Everything after that is on the shooter.

[broadside72]

19 minutes ago, NickBlasta said:

 

The gun must be loaded on a loaded start or the competitor is also not in the start position.

 

You must have SOME ammo in the gun to be "loaded". A magazine must be inserted or a round must be chambered. 8.1 tells us to not instruct the competitor to rack the slide if they forget.

A3 - Loaded - A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm.

 

If someone forgets to insert a magazine or chamber a round at all, they must be instructed to comply with the start position.

 

Even if their own actions put them at a disadvantage? The rules are enforced when it gives a shooter an unfair advantage, not the other way around. For example, if one is backing up and firing at a target and steps out of bounds, thus making him farther away from the target, is that a procedural since it was not an advantage for the shots fired? If he turns around and fires at other targets then he may get the procedural(s) as he is closer to the target and gaining an advantage.

[NickBlasta]

Just now, broadside72 said:

 

Even if their own actions put them at a disadvantage? The rules are enforced when it gives a shooter an unfair advantage, not the other way around. For example, if one is backing up and firing at a target and steps out of bounds, thus making him farther away from the target, is that a procedural since it was not an advantage for the shots fired? If he turns around and fires at other targets then he may get the procedural(s) as he is closer to the target and gaining an advantage.

 

The rule is the same rule, the shooter is not complying with the start position, you are enforcing it for consistency's sake. Yes it would be disadvantageous to not have a magazine inserted however the rulebook says that this is an allowable start position and you are not his coach.

 

You only have to consider advantageousness when the rulebook tells you to. The competitor would get one procedural for faulting and you would consider giving him per shot for significant advantage or not.

[Sarge]

45 minutes ago, NickBlasta said:

 

The gun must be loaded on a loaded start or the competitor is also not in the start position.

 

You must have SOME ammo in the gun to be "loaded". A magazine must be inserted or a round must be chambered. 8.1 tells us to not instruct the competitor to rack the slide if they forget.

A3 - Loaded - A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm.

 

If someone forgets to insert a magazine or chamber a round at all, they must be instructed to comply with the start position.

You are comparing start positions to gun ready conditions. A loaded gun is not a position. 

This is starting to feel like an episode of the twilight zone.

Im not doing the leg work but look up start condition and start position in the rule book.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Sarge

[NickBlasta]

1 minute ago, Sarge said:

You are comparing start positions to gun ready conditions. A loaded gun is not a position. 

This is starting to feel like an episode of the twilight zone.

 

Are you saying that the competitor is complying with "gun loaded and holstered" without the gun being loaded?

[Sarge]

1 minute ago, NickBlasta said:

 

Are you saying that the competitor is complying with "gun loaded and holstered" without the gun being loaded?

I’m saying I’m going to give range commands. Nothing says I have to help a shooter with ready conditions. The rule only says the WSB must clearly state ready conditions.  The rules say I can’t start a shooter who is not in the correct start POSITION.

[NickBlasta]

1 minute ago, Sarge said:

I’m saying I’m going to give range commands. Nothing says I have to help a shooter with ready conditions. The rule only says the WSB must clearly state ready conditions.  The rules say I can’t start a shooter who is not in the correct start POSITION.

 

Sorry man but it does actually say that.

 

Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face downrange, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and hearing protection, and prepare the firearm in accordance with the written stage briefing.  The competitor must then assume the specified start position.  The Range Officer will not proceed with any further range commands until the competitor is still and is in the correct start position.

 

You are supervising the competitor (ie, giving them instruction, which may not include only range commands) to prepare their firearm according to the WSB. If they do not ready their firearm the competitor cannot proceed to assuming the start position, and you cannot proceed to "are you ready".

[Sarge]

Again it and you keep saying start position.

[Sarge]

19 minutes ago, NickBlasta said:

 

Sorry man but it does actually say that.

 

Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face downrange, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and hearing protection, and prepare the firearm in accordance with the written stage briefing.  The competitor must then assume the specified start position.  The Range Officer will not proceed with any further range commands until the competitor is still and is in the correct start position.

 

You are supervising the competitor (ie, giving them instruction, which may not include only range commands) to prepare their firearm according to the WSB. If they do not ready their firearm the competitor cannot proceed to assuming the start position, and you cannot proceed to "are you ready".

You are being way to literal. Eyes and ears will probably already be on?

MUST- face downrange and prepare gun. If he fails to face downrange and pulls gun he is DQ’ed. If he doesn’t load gun oops! MUST-assume start position. If he doesn’t I can’t start him per rules. Seems really black and white to me.