waktasz Posted January 31, 2019 Author Share Posted January 31, 2019 54 minutes ago, racerba said: agreed...so if it's unenforceable and it's a grey line...I think that the definition of holstering should be changed to holstered...as in once the hand is taken off the gun...same as if it's placed... It's not unenforceable, it's just very difficult to catch. If you see someone do it, yes it's a DQ, but usually it happens too fast to determine that. If you see someone going toward the holster with the gun off safe, the correct course of action is "STOP", and correct them before an unsafe act happens. Waiting for them to holster it and remove their hand just so you can make the call is nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 (edited) The PCC start thread made a drastic turn around page 3 about holstering a handgun. Curiosity got the better of me, so I asked the powers that be for some clarification. Here’s the answer I received. It does seem as though the rule should read “holstered” instead of “holstering”... untill the winds change. Edited February 1, 2019 by HCH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 I brought all (I hope) the holstering stuff over from the PCC thread. Enjoy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 On 1/31/2019 at 2:40 PM, waktasz said: It's not unenforceable, it's just very difficult to catch. If you see someone do it, yes it's a DQ, but usually it happens too fast to determine that. it does happen too fast to catch it and therefore pretty much unenforceable... On 1/31/2019 at 2:40 PM, waktasz said: If you see someone going toward the holster with the gun off safe, the correct course of action is "STOP", and correct them before an unsafe act happens. Waiting for them to holster it and remove their hand just so you can make the call is nonsense. Yes, of course you stop them as they are making the move to holster the gun while the safety isn't on...done that plenty of time... if you wait for them to holster then move their hand from the gun then DQ them, then it's a dick move... what i am suggesting is that sometimes they move too fast for their own good and if you are able to stop them, great...if not, you will still be able to stop them before they take their hands of the gun... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 I still say if it is a dick move then the rules should be rewritten to say something other than holstering off safe is a DQ. Like I said it happened twice last year while I was Roing. There has got to be a way for an RO to enforce a rule without being called a dick or a nazi and maintain competitive equity. Saying stop before an infraction is not the correct answer. If a guy reaches for his gun while facing uprange do you yell stop? No. If a guy is clearly going to break the 180 to swing on a target he passed do you call stop? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 38 minutes ago, Sarge said: If a guy reaches for his gun while facing uprange do you yell stop? I do, but I don't like guns pointing at people. Maybe that makes me a sissy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Sarge said: I still say if it is a dick move then the rules should be rewritten to say something other than holstering off safe is a DQ. Like I said it happened twice last year while I was Roing. There has got to be a way for an RO to enforce a rule without being called a dick or a nazi and maintain competitive equity. Saying stop before an infraction is not the correct answer. If a guy reaches for his gun while facing uprange do you yell stop? No. If a guy is clearly going to break the 180 to swing on a target he passed do you call stop? No. Got to agree with this one, although the two examples don’t really equal our problem of not knowing what the hell “holstering” actually is. I shoot glocks about half the time and 1911/2011 the other half. Whenever I Barney up, I chamber a round, kick the safety on, and proceed about my business. It really seems to me that this rule only “catches” complete dumb@sses or newbs. In the case of the former: oh well. The newbs might need some help, or a DQ, depending on how the rest of the day has been. All in all, by a person’s third match this should be a non-issue. Then again, I am not against the way most 3 gun matches seem to be: don’t shoot yourself and don’t point guns at us. Edited February 1, 2019 by HCH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 40 minutes ago, motosapiens said: I do, but I don't like guns pointing at people. Maybe that makes me a sissy. See the definition of a drawn pistol... I can have my hand on my holstered pistol and run around in circles.. it’s the pulling it that matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 6 minutes ago, HCH said: See the definition of a drawn pistol... I can have my hand on my holstered pistol and run around in circles.. it’s the pulling it that matters. nonetheless, I'm going to say something if you start reaching for it while facing uprange. I have never seen someone run around in circles with their hand on their holstered pistol while facing uprange. OTOH, I have seen people draw their guns while facing directly uprange, and I don't like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 3 hours ago, motosapiens said: nonetheless, I'm going to say something if you start reaching for it while facing uprange. I have never seen someone run around in circles with their hand on their holstered pistol while facing uprange. OTOH, I have seen people draw their guns while facing directly uprange, and I don't like it. If there is something odd involved such as turning away from the gun and running 5-10 yards my hand goes straight to my gun at the beep as I turn. This gets the gun under positive control so it doesn’t get bumped out or whatever. I kind of drive the gun into the holster. Calling stop before an infraction is not the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 3 hours ago, motosapiens said: nonetheless, I'm going to say something if you start reaching for it while facing uprange. I have never seen someone run around in circles with their hand on their holstered pistol while facing uprange. OTOH, I have seen people draw their guns while facing directly uprange, and I don't like it. So if a fella decided to put a hand on his pistol, run to the shooting area, turn, and then draw you’d scream at him?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 1 minute ago, Sarge said: If there is something odd involved such as turning away from the gun and running 5-10 yards my hand goes straight to my gun at the beep as I turn. This gets the gun under positive control so it doesn’t get bumped out or whatever. I kind of drive the gun into the holster. Calling stop before an infraction is not the way to go. 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 6 hours ago, racerba said: it does happen too fast to catch it and therefore pretty much unenforceable... Yes, of course you stop them as they are making the move to holster the gun while the safety isn't on...done that plenty of time... if you wait for them to holster then move their hand from the gun then DQ them, then it's a dick move... what i am suggesting is that sometimes they move too fast for their own good and if you are able to stop them, great...if not, you will still be able to stop them before they take their hands of the gun... How is it a dick move to enforce safety rules? If the gun is holstered and the safety is off, it is a DQ even if their hand is still on the gun. I think it's a dick move to make s#!t up and allow people to develop bad and dangerous habits that they take with them to other matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 50 minutes ago, bret said: How is it a dick move to enforce safety rules? If the gun is holstered and the safety is off, it is a DQ even if their hand is still on the gun. I think it's a dick move to make s#!t up and allow people to develop bad and dangerous habits that they take with them to other matches. It would be awesome if we had a description of what holstering is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 14 minutes ago, HCH said: It would be awesome if we had a description of what holstering is... Troy already told you what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, bret said: Troy already told you what it is. No.. he said what holstered is/was. Literally nothing in my question was answered. Edited February 2, 2019 by HCH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jskd82 Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 (edited) interesting, seems like kind of a gray area. Edited February 2, 2019 by jskd82 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 On 2/1/2019 at 10:33 PM, bret said: How is it a dick move to enforce safety rules? If the gun is holstered and the safety is off, it is a DQ even if their hand is still on the gun. I think it's a dick move to make s#!t up and allow people to develop bad and dangerous habits that they take with them to other matches. It's a dick move to allow them to go that far in order to DQ them....please pay attention to why the comment was made...my comment was a reply to Matt!!!!!!! You should have stopped them (or try to) way before they get to that point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 On 2/1/2019 at 11:38 PM, bret said: Troy already told you what it is. as stated before - Troy's told me what "holstered" meant...not "holstering"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 7 minutes ago, racerba said: It's a dick move to allow them to go that far in order to DQ them....please pay attention to why the comment was made...my comment was a reply to Matt!!!!!!! You should have stopped them (or try to) way before they get to that point... You don't stop someone for what they may do. I was working a match, I was the r.o. on the weak side of the shooter as he was moving left the other r.o. got in between us, another r.o. ran up and started yelling at the shooter because he was close to breaking 180, the way the other r.o. ran up on him, startled him and the shooter turned to his left and ended up pointing a loaded open gun at me, now the shooter did break 180 and was dqd, because of what an r.o. caused by his interference and actions. Range Officers enforce the rules, they aren't supposed to make stuff up or interfere with the shooter while they are shooting or stop them for something they Might do. What rule says stop a shooter before they may break a rule? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, bret said: You don't stop someone for what they may do. I was working a match, I was the r.o. on the weak side of the shooter as he was moving left the other r.o. got in between us, another r.o. ran up and started yelling at the shooter because he was close to breaking 180, the way the other r.o. ran up on him, startled him and the shooter turned to his left and ended up pointing a loaded open gun at me, now the shooter did break 180 and was dqd, because of what an r.o. caused by his interference and actions. Range Officers enforce the rules, they aren't supposed to make stuff up or interfere with the shooter while they are shooting or stop them for something they Might do. What rule says stop a shooter before they may break a rule? The RO's code allows me to stop the shooter before he does something dangerous!!!!!!!! I am not making anything up and I am not interfering with the shooter...the clock is not running...I am stopping the shooter from doing something dangerous...I don't want the shooter to be pointing a loaded weapon without the safety on pointing at my foot...or his leg...in doing so, I saved him from a DQ...saving him is not my concern...safety is my concern!!!! your situation has nothing to do with what we are talking about...completely different...stop making stuff up that has nothing to do with the discussion... Edited February 4, 2019 by racerba added the first sentence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 8 minutes ago, bret said: You don't stop someone for what they may do. I was working a match, I was the r.o. on the weak side of the shooter as he was moving left the other r.o. got in between us, another r.o. ran up and started yelling at the shooter because he was close to breaking 180, the way the other r.o. ran up on him, startled him and the shooter turned to his left and ended up pointing a loaded open gun at me, now the shooter did break 180 and was dqd, because of what an r.o. caused by his interference and actions. Range Officers enforce the rules, they aren't supposed to make stuff up or interfere with the shooter while they are shooting or stop them for something they Might do. What rule says stop a shooter before they may break a rule? Maybe the don't be a dick rule? I have seen an ro tell a shooter to stop at ULSC as the shooter was about to pull the trigger on a loaded gun and get himself dqed. So, in a situation like that why be a dick? Note, though i am not talking about giving direction between tje buzzer and the last shot. 1 minute ago, racerba said: I am not making anything up and I am not interfering with the shooter...the clock is not running...I am stopping the shooter from doing something dangerous...I don't want the shooter to be pointing a loaded weapon without the safety on pointing at my foot...or his leg...in doing so, I saved him from a DQ...saving him is not my concern...safety is my concern!!!! your situation has nothing to do with what we are talking about...completely different...stop making stuff up that has nothing to do with the discussion... Correct right here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 15 minutes ago, RJH said: Maybe the don't be a dick rule? I have seen an ro tell a shooter to stop at ULSC as the shooter was about to pull the trigger on a loaded gun and get himself dqed. So, in a situation like that why be a dick? Note, though i am not talking about giving direction between tje buzzer and the last shot. Correct right here Quote that rule number? There is no reason to be a dick or make s#!t up, but it is a dick move to do anything other than follow the rules as written not your made up ideas of what should be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 31 minutes ago, bret said: Quote that rule number? There is no reason to be a dick or make s#!t up, but it is a dick move to do anything other than follow the rules as written not your made up ideas of what should be done. You are the one who always likes to talk about what troy says, and that is a very well know troy ruling. Also can you quote the rule that says i can't tell a shooter to put a safety on or re ulsc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 31 minutes ago, RJH said: You are the one who always likes to talk about what troy says, and that is a very well know troy ruling. Also can you quote the rule that says i can't tell a shooter to put a safety on or re ulsc? Read the range commands, tell me where after make ready it says you can tell them to put their safety on. Are you going to tell the shooter they forgot to rack the slide or put a magazine in their gun after the Make Ready? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now