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Holstering


waktasz
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On 1/28/2019 at 6:12 PM, Joe4d said:

no different than  holstering a handgun,,, If I pull my hand away and safety isnt on a SA,,, its a dq, regardless of where the RO is in the range commands.

 

If you put a pistol in the holster without the safety applied, it doesn't matter if your hand is still on it, it's a DQ.

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1 minute ago, waktasz said:

 

If you put a pistol in the holster without the safety applied, it doesn't matter if your hand is still on it, it's a DQ.

Indeed. I had two shooters do this last year on back to back squads at a level II. First time ever seeing it happen and they were within minutes of each other.

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5 minutes ago, waktasz said:

 

If you put a pistol in the holster without the safety applied, it doesn't matter if your hand is still on it, it's a DQ.

that seems illogical. using the same failed logic, if you are holding a pistol and touch the pistol to the table while it is not on safe, it should be a dq. 

 

I wouldn't call a pistol 'holstered' if your hand is still on it, just like I wouldn't call it 'placing' if your hand is still on it.. but I can see why certain types of people would, lol.

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2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

that seems illogical. using the same failed logic, if you are holding a pistol and touch the pistol to the table while it is not on safe, it should be a dq. 

 

I wouldn't call a pistol 'holstered' if your hand is still on it, just like I wouldn't call it 'placing' if your hand is still on it.. but I can see why certain types of people would, lol.

Huh? A gun is either in a holster or on a table, or it’s not. Still touching it doesn’t change that.

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Just now, Sarge said:

Huh? A gun is either in a holster or on a table, or it’s not. Still touching it doesn’t change that.

so you're saying if i touch the gun to the table while it's not on safe, i have placed it there, and it's a DQ? 

 

If you're still gripping the gun (as opposed to touching it with a finger), I'd say it is not holstered or placed anywhere.

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13 minutes ago, waktasz said:

 

If you put a pistol in the holster without the safety applied, it doesn't matter if your hand is still on it, it's a DQ.

 

If it is loaded. Some folks like to pull back the hammer with a holstered gun as part of their routine at "make ready". 

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Holstering is an action,, I tilt the gun down,, I am in process of holstering,, Or heck, once my brain says holster I am holstering,,,, I havent completed that act till my hand comes off. I would argue I was still in process of holstering and wasnt complete.

One thing I did learn from this and the finger thread,, next time I get (assuming I RO again) a negligent discharge,,  I'll issue the DQ for finger while not engaging,,, as based on the jump look and shock was obvious shooter wasnt engaging and had finger on trigger.
Seems pretty asinine finger on trigger is a DQ,,, yet actually lighting off the round isnt if it hits the ground 11 feet away... 

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27 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

that seems illogical. using the same failed logic, if you are holding a pistol and touch the pistol to the table while it is not on safe, it should be a dq. 

 

I wouldn't call a pistol 'holstered' if your hand is still on it, just like I wouldn't call it 'placing' if your hand is still on it.. but I can see why certain types of people would, lol.

 

 

There are rules regarding putting a gun down on the ground/table. For single action guns the safety must be on once you are no longer touching it.
 

Quote


10.5.3    If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or 
unloading, a competitor drops his firearm or causes it to fall, loaded or not.  
Note that a competitor who, for any reason during a course of fire, safely and 
intentionally places the firearm on the ground or other stable object will not 
be disqualified provided: 
10.5.3.1  The competitor maintains constant physical contact with the 
firearm, until it is placed firmly and securely on the ground or 
another stable object, and 
10.5.3.2  The competitor remains within 3 feet of the firearm at all times 
(except where the firearm is placed at a greater distance, under 
the supervision of a Range Official, in order to comply with a start 
position), and 
10.5.3.3  The provisions of Rule 10.5.2 do not occur, and 
10.5.3.4  The firearm is in the ready condition as specified in Section 8.1, or 
10.5.3.5  A self-loading firearm has an empty chamber, the magazine 
removed, and the slide/bolt locked open, or 


 

 

There are also rules for holstering a pistol. Not just a holstered pistol but the act of holstering. The safety must also be on. The rules as they apply here are slightly different from the above, but are still very clear.

Quote

10.5.11  Holstering or placing a loaded firearm, in any of the following conditions:  
10.5.11.1  A single action self-loading firearm with the safety not applied

 

Edited by waktasz
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I guess it doesn't seem quite as clear to me. If "placing" doesn't happen while you are still in physical contact with the gun, I don't see why "holstering" should be deemed to happen when you are still in physical contact with the gun.

 

I can see why some folks would like to interpret it that way tho.

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1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

I guess it doesn't seem quite as clear to me. If "placing" doesn't happen while you are still in physical contact with the gun, I don't see why "holstering" should be deemed to happen when you are still in physical contact with the gun.

 

I can see why some folks would like to interpret it that way tho.

At least for holstering I would think the purpose for the safety being on is to prevent the gun from firing when placing it in the holster.

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3 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I guess it doesn't seem quite as clear to me. If "placing" doesn't happen while you are still in physical contact with the gun, I don't see why "holstering" should be deemed to happen when you are still in physical contact with the gun.

 

I can see why some folks would like to interpret it that way tho.

 

It's not an interpretation. The rule is clear. You don't have to have it on when placing it on the ground until you let go of it. 

 

You have to have it on while in the act of holstering though.

 

Practically speaking, the time you most want to have the safety on on your gun is while holstering. Once it's in there, it's probably safe, but if you're going to shoot your foot off, it's during the act of putting it in there. 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Sarge said:

At least for holstering I would think the purpose for the safety being on is to prevent the gun from firing when placing it in the holster.

 

Hmm. that actually makes some sense. and when you think about it, you only get the exemption from sweeping your leg while you are actually holstering, so if you claimed to not be holstering, then you're probably sweeping yourself.

 

Thanks for the further explanation.

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1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

 

Hmm. that actually makes some sense. and when you think about it, you only get the exemption from sweeping your leg while you are actually holstering, so if you claimed to not be holstering, then you're probably sweeping yourself.

 

Thanks for the further explanation.

If your finger is in the trigger guard, no exemption for sweeping your lower extremities. 

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13 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

my gun won't fit in the holster with my finger in the trigger guard. Perhaps I am doing it wrong.

When you unholster or holster your gun you are exempt from sweeping your lower extremities,  if your finger is outside of the trigger guard.

 

Your finger can easily fit inside a trigger guard while in the act of unholstering or holstering your fun.

 

Many people have shot themselves holstering a loaded gun because their finger was inside the trigger guard.

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Well the rule says what it says. I actually DQ'd a shooter for this exact action during make ready under the old rulebook. Inserted loaded magazine in the 1911 (old rule said at this time the gun was loaded.) Shooter did not cock the hammer and holstered the gun with the safety off (yes technically he could not apply the safety because the hammer down), but the rule said a loaded gun holstered without the safety applied was a DQ. 

 

I was overruled despite the clear wording of the rule, which led to the new rule.

 

Now I am sure some will call me a rule nazi for my actions, although I think those who know me might say that is not true .

 

The problem is I believe words mean things.

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1 minute ago, Gary Stevens said:

Well the rule says what it says. I actually DQ'd a shooter for this exact action during make ready under the old rulebook. Inserted loaded magazine in the 1911 (old rule said at this time the gun was loaded.) Shooter did not cock the hammer and holstered the gun with the safety off (yes technically he could not apply the safety because the hammer down), but the rule said a loaded gun holstered without the safety applied was a DQ. 

 

I was overruled despite the clear wording of the rule, which led to the new rule.

 

Now I am sure some will call me a rule nazi for my actions, although I think those who know me might say that is not true .

 

The problem is I believe words mean things.

I think there was a ruling on this that said it was allowed.

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8 minutes ago, bret said:

I think there was a ruling on this that said it was allowed.

Yes I was the catalyst for that ruling and the new rule.

 

At the moment I made my call it was a violation of the rules, all agreed, but......

 

Personally I am glad the shooter was reinstated . That did not and does not change my view that words mean things.

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1 minute ago, Gary Stevens said:

Yes I was the catalyst for that ruling and the new rule.

 

At the moment I made my call it was a violation of the rules, all agreed, but......

 

Personally I am glad the shooter was reinstated . That did not and does not change my view that words mean things.

I agree words mean things and when RM's, R.O.'s and Troy make up rules or ignore rules it screws things up.

 

We have a rule book, follow it, or get rid of the rules they don't like.

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4 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

words mean things, but they don't always mean the exact same things to different people. If they did, we wouldn't need lawyers and courts, and we wouldn't need range lawyers and DNROI.

What is unclear about the rule being discussed here?

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