RJH Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 2 minutes ago, Sarge said: You are being way to literal. Eyes and ears will probably already be on? MUST- face downrange and prepare gun. If he fails to face downrange and pulls gun he is DQ’ed. If he doesn’t load gun oops! MUST-assume start position. If he doesn’t I can’t start him per rules. Seems really black and white to me. So i looked up both positions, handgun and competitor. Looks to me that if the wsb states loaded gun, the ro cannot start the competitor until the gun is loaded. 8.1 says that it is up to the competitor to chamber a round, 8.2.1 says the handgun is prepared as pre wsb. In other words if the wsb says loaded start, the handgun must have at least a magazine with ammo in the gun, or else you are not going to be able to comply with 8.2.1 and that would be on the ro, however if the competitor does not chamber a round, 8.1 says that is on him. Looking at the rules, that is my take. If i am missing something, please let me know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 3 minutes ago, RJH said: So i looked up both positions, handgun and competitor. Looks to me that if the wsb states loaded gun, the ro cannot start the competitor until the gun is loaded. 8.1 says that it is up to the competitor to chamber a round, 8.2.1 says the handgun is prepared as pre wsb. In other words if the wsb says loaded start, the handgun must have at least a magazine with ammo in the gun, or else you are not going to be able to comply with 8.2.1 and that would be on the ro, however if the competitor does not chamber a round, 8.1 says that is on him. Looking at the rules, that is my take. If i am missing something, please let me know Another thing caught my eye. I think the MUST only pertains to facing downrange or in a safe direction. And let’s remember the Start position has the added rule than an RO can’t start a shooter until they are in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 2 minutes ago, Sarge said: And let’s remember the Start position has the added rule than an RO can’t start a shooter until they are in it. Right, that is why I think if the start position is gun loaded etc, starting a shooter that had no ammo in their gun should result in a reshoot because they would not be complying with 8.2.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 1 minute ago, RJH said: Right, that is why I think if the start position is gun loaded etc, starting a shooter that had no ammo in their gun should result in a reshoot because they would not be complying with 8.2.1 OMG! Seriously? Start POSITIONS have nothing to do with guns!!!!!! Are you just playing with me now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickBlasta Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 5 minutes ago, Sarge said: Another thing caught my eye. I think the MUST only pertains to facing downrange or in a safe direction. And let’s remember the Start position has the added rule than an RO can’t start a shooter until they are in it. If you're going to nitpick language, the commas create a complete thought rather than separate conditions, that is "must" applies to everything subsequently as a list, including the shooter preparing his gun according to the WSB. It's true that it's black and white, you're just doing it wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 Just now, Sarge said: OMG! Seriously? Start POSITIONS have nothing to do with guns!!!!!! Are you just playing with me now? I really think you should read 8.2.1 the gun is literally the first thing mentioned in competitor ready condition which is the basis for the start position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 Condition position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcc7x7 Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 Sarge Do yourself a favor and give it up, some folks gotta have it their way. My answer is this ain't Burger King! Hope to see you at the Battle in the Bluegrass Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 1 minute ago, jcc7x7 said: Sarge Do yourself a favor and give it up, some folks gotta have it their way. My answer is this ain't Burger King! Hope to see you at the Battle in the Bluegrass Neil I have. I surrender. See you there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 It seems that some folks will only believe when Troy comes down from the mountain and reads from the stone rulebook. Please call upon him and post his answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmie Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 I am dizzy from reading all of this and against my better judgment, I will offer my 2 cents. Under 8.1, Handgun ready conditions, there is nothing at all that says a competitor gets a reshoot for NOT having his GUN in the proper ready condition and it clearly states the R.O. cannot take any action if he/she doesn't chamber a round. It is just stating what the ready condition is. The reshoot comes into play under 8.2, competitor ready condition. I have the feeling that I'm going to regret this............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Sarge said: Condition position I am not really trying argue just clarify, so let ask a question; Assuming a loaded gun start per the wsb and taking rule 8.2.1 into consideration, can you legally start a competitor whose handgun does not fit the definition of loaded per the glossary? Gary, you please answer this too. And both of y'all just look at this specific question and dont read anything into it. PS i don't really care what troy thinks, only what the rule book says. And up until I reread it am hour or so ago, I seemed to share y'alls opinion. So if i am wrong, please show me why, I think some of this is being lost in the internet speak haha Edited February 6, 2019 by RJH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 Yes I can. As I said before if they do nothing I'll repeat MR, perhaps they didn't hear me. However, at some point, after they assume the correct start position, I ask Are You Ready? This is the last chance for the shooter to stop the process. Absent a negative response the shooter has accepted all of the conditions as they exist at that moment. They accept the heat, the cold, the sunshine, the darkness, the rain, the good footing, the mud, and the condition their handgun is when the buzzer sounds. They own it lock, stock, and barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 33 minutes ago, RJH said: I am not really trying argue just clarify, so let ask a question; Assuming a loaded gun start per the wsb and taking rule 8.2.1 into consideration, can you legally start a competitor whose handgun does not fit the definition of loaded per the glossary? Gary, you please answer this too. And both of y'all just look at this specific question and dont read anything into it. PS i don't really care what troy thinks, only what the rule book says. And up until I reread it am hour or so ago, I seemed to share y'alls opinion. So if i am wrong, please show me why, I think some of this is being lost in the internet speak haha In my opinion yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revoman Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 If the shooter racks his slide and a round fails to chamber and the RO and shooter do not recognize this. Is this grounds for a reshoot as in my mind it would be the same as the shooter not loading a round. I think the shooter owns it either way and no reshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 Alright, i was all ready to agree with Gary and still might, but then I read 8.3.1, the "make ready" procudure. It says that the competitor MUST under ro supervision, put on eye and ear pro and prepare the handgun as per the wsb. Then they get in the start position. So it seems that they shouldn't be allowed to take a start position until those things are done. But , hell i don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 1 minute ago, revoman said: If the shooter racks his slide and a round fails to chamber and the RO and shooter do not recognize this. Is this grounds for a reshoot as in my mind it would be the same as the shooter not loading a round. I think the shooter owns it either way and no reshoot. Another awesome example of shooter responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 2 minutes ago, revoman said: If the shooter racks his slide and a round fails to chamber and the RO and shooter do not recognize this. Is this grounds for a reshoot as in my mind it would be the same as the shooter not loading a round. I think the shooter owns it either way and no reshoot. No reshoot, 8.1 specifically talks about this type of thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 2 minutes ago, RJH said: Alright, i was all ready to agree with Gary and still might, but then I read 8.3.1, the "make ready" procudure. It says that the competitor MUST under ro supervision, put on eye and ear pro and prepare the handgun as per the wsb. Then they get in the start position. So it seems that they shouldn't be allowed to take a start position until those things are done. But , hell i don't know. So, as an RO I have to ask shooter to prove to me the gun actually scooped a round out of the mag? Or that the round doesn’t have a sideways primer? Or he didn’t load a squib at midnight last night? Where does it end? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 How many DRL's can dance on the head of an RO? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Sarge said: So, as an RO I have to ask shooter to prove to me the gun actually scooped a round out of the mag? Or that the round doesn’t have a sideways primer? Or he didn’t load a squib at midnight last night? Where does it end? I only kinda think that as an ro you *might* have to be sure that the gun complies with the wsb. If it says unloaded, they dont get to load it, seems logical right? And if the wsb says loaded then the gun should probably fit the GLOSSARY definition of loaded, seems just as logical to me. Note the glossary definition of loaded doesn't say that the chamber must have ammo in it, which seems to align perfectly with the intent and wording of 8.1 After reading all of that together i don't think that i can start a shooter with an unloaded gun on a loaded start and be in compliance with the rules. Remember that I am talking about the glossary definition of loaded here, not whether the gun scooped ammo or not. If y'all disagree that is fine. Just remember that it is Kevin's fault that i reread all this crap and changed my opinion haha. Edited February 6, 2019 by RJH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickBlasta Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 1 hour ago, revoman said: If the shooter racks his slide and a round fails to chamber and the RO and shooter do not recognize this. Is this grounds for a reshoot as in my mind it would be the same as the shooter not loading a round. I think the shooter owns it either way and no reshoot. Is there ammo somewhere in the gun? Then no. Is the gun completely unloaded? Then yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickBlasta Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 1 hour ago, Sarge said: So, as an RO I have to ask shooter to prove to me the gun actually scooped a round out of the mag? Or that the round doesn’t have a sideways primer? Or he didn’t load a squib at midnight last night? Where does it end? It's really not that difficult to ascertain if the shooter loaded their gun or not. You'll find out right after the beep. As for an actual consequence of "maybe" having to have the shooter comply with the ready condition, I can load my gun for an unloaded start, because it's not your responsibility, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 3 hours ago, RJH said: I only kinda think that as an ro you *might* have to be sure that the gun complies with the wsb. If it says unloaded, they dont get to load it, seems logical right? And if the wsb says loaded then the gun should probably fit the GLOSSARY definition of loaded, seems just as logical to me. Note the glossary definition of loaded doesn't say that the chamber must have ammo in it, which seems to align perfectly with the intent and wording of 8.1 After reading all of that together i don't think that i can start a shooter with an unloaded gun on a loaded start and be in compliance with the rules. Remember that I am talking about the glossary definition of loaded here, not whether the gun scooped ammo or not. If y'all disagree that is fine. Just remember that it is Kevin's fault that i reread all this crap and changed my opinion haha. Loading a gun when it should be unloaded is an advantage and is always corrected. Not loading a gun when you should is just dumb, and your fault not mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 2 hours ago, NickBlasta said: It's really not that difficult to ascertain if the shooter loaded their gun or not. You'll find out right after the beep. So now we call stop after the beep if the gun isn’t loaded? Ugh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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