HCH Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 hour ago, waktasz said: This thread is a disaster and I fear for the future of our sport, especially now that it is more difficult to have an easily accessible rulebook on hand because of the lack of a printed copy. Itll be interesting to see what happens in 10 years.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 I agree with sarge but after reading it multiple times I think he is wrong per the rules. I hate that we have to hand hold and correct a shooter's self inflicted disadvantage. An advantage, absolutely, but if you want to make things harder on yourself in this "free style" sport then why not? Not very free style now is it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 31 minutes ago, HCH said: Itll be interesting to see what happens in 10 years.... Agreed. I have ran several squads since the new rules kicked in and even after reading them multiple times it's still hard to remember the changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 2 hours ago, RJH said: Actually i would only make sure that the competitor appeared to load his gun as per the wsb, just like i would make sure that he had his eye and ear pro in, as required by 8.3.1 So would start a competitor without eye pro or ear pro? No I wouldn't but now you have helped prove my point about loaded gun. You have quoted "must" how many times now? But now all of a sudden if he APPEARS to load the gun it's good. As you would say, "show me in the rules where it says if he appears to load the gun then it is loaded". This is why as an RO I don't care. If he is in the correct start position BEEP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 13 hours ago, waktasz said: When? As soon as he starts the motion toward the holster and you realize the gun is off safe. In fact, I just did this on Sunday. Relatively new looking shooter shooting a hammer fired HK gun with a decocker. 3 string classifier. He made ready and shot string one as expected. Then dropped his mag, topped off, chamber checked (all this is fine) then started his motion toward the holster with the hammer still back. STOP. huh? Decock that thing please. oh and all was well. the rule says "while holstering..." so if you say "As soon as he starts the motion toward the holster ..." is the definition of "holstering"...then the shooter should have been DQ... Now I agree completely with what you did and I'd do the same...that's why I think that particular rule needs to be changed to "holstered" instead of holstering...because, you know that there are some RO out there that will definitely DQ somebody instead of stopping him as you did... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 4 minutes ago, racerba said: I think that particular rule needs to be changed to "holstered" instead of holstering...because, you know that there are some RO out there that will definitely DQ somebody instead of stopping him as you did... I want to agree but in the interest of safety there should be wording that maybe says something like while holstering the gun must be on safe prior to sweeping the lower extremities. But I still don't think we should get in the habit of stopping a shooter for what he might do. If you change it to holstered then RO's still have to watch it all the way to the holster before calling stop if it's off safe. Some shooters do things very simply and others get waay to complicated with their routines. I tend to insert a mag, rack and put gun on safe immediately. Then no matter what else I do I won't have a brain dump and forget it. Some shooters put the safety on as the very last thing they do before holstering. If you interject into their routine, "put it on safe" it becomes your routine and not theirs. If you call stop as he "begins the holstering process" you just F'ed with his head and he will want moved down in the order. And he'll be pissed. I tend to stick to range commands only, unless I'm asked for help. Now, if the rules get rewritten to say the RO can Call stop and issue a DQ if he believes a shooter may be getting ready to commit an unsafe act, then I'm all for it. Until then we DQ for actual violations that have already been committed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 20 minutes ago, Sarge said: No I wouldn't but now you have helped prove my point about loaded gun. You have quoted "must" how many times now? But now all of a sudden if he APPEARS to load the gun it's good. As you would say, "show me in the rules where it says if he appears to load the gun then it is loaded". This is why as an RO I don't care. If he is in the correct start position BEEP. My main basis is that you shouldn't KNOWINGLY allow a shooter to take a start position with a completely unloaded gun and the rules back that up. Obviously we are not omniscient, so we do the best we can, which should as ROs include making resonably sure that handguns are compliant with the wsb (did they at least look like they were loading up), if not they probably don't understand the wsb and maybe should be moved down a spot or two . I also can come up with 10,000 straw man arguments about whatever, but that does not change the rules as written, and that is really all the evidence you have presented to justify your, at least according to the rules, incorrect opinion As ROs we shouldn't willfully ignore rules that we don't agree with, 8.3.1 is clear and a competitor's gun should be compliant with the wsb before being allowed to get in the start position. I wonder if this rule is less about the competitor forgetting to load his gun, as i have never seen that happen, and more about either no wsbs being provided (yes i know they are supposed to be), or some stupid gotcha style wsb from somewhere way back. Or possibly from back in the "do you understand the course of fire days". Whichever way, it is the currently the rule and should be followed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted February 7, 2019 Author Share Posted February 7, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Sarge said: I want to agree but in the interest of safety there should be wording that maybe says something like while holstering the gun must be on safe prior to sweeping the lower extremities. But I still don't think we should get in the habit of stopping a shooter for what he might do. If you change it to holstered then RO's still have to watch it all the way to the holster before calling stop if it's off safe. Some shooters do things very simply and others get waay to complicated with their routines. I tend to insert a mag, rack and put gun on safe immediately. Then no matter what else I do I won't have a brain dump and forget it. Some shooters put the safety on as the very last thing they do before holstering. If you interject into their routine, "put it on safe" it becomes your routine and not theirs. If you call stop as he "begins the holstering process" you just F'ed with his head and he will want moved down in the order. And he'll be pissed. I tend to stick to range commands only, unless I'm asked for help. Now, if the rules get rewritten to say the RO can Call stop and issue a DQ if he believes a shooter may be getting ready to commit an unsafe act, then I'm all for it. Until then we DQ for actual violations that have already been committed. Stop is a range command. It's pretty easy to tell one someone is done with their loading routine and is about to put the gun in the holster. At that point I have called stop. I have done this at least 4 or 5 times in the last few years. Sometimes they hear me and stop. Sometimes they get the gun in the holster then turn to me to ask why I yelled something. Either way, I'm doing what I can to stop an unsafe situation, correct it, and then continue. I'm not going to wait until he gets to the point where his hot gun is in the holster, with a 2 pound trigger and off safe to tell him he is DQd. That's asinine. Just because you call stop doesn't mean the only ending to that interaction is a DQ. Edited February 7, 2019 by waktasz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 11 minutes ago, waktasz said: Stop is a range command. It's pretty easy to tell one someone is done with their loading routine and is about to put the gun in the holster. At that point I have called stop. I have done this at least 4 or 5 times in the last few years. Sometimes they hear me and stop. Sometimes they get the gun in the holster then turn to me to ask why I yelled something. Either way, I'm doing what I can to stop an unsafe situation, correct it, and then continue. I'm not going to wait until he gets to the point where his hot gun is in the holster, with a 2 pound trigger and off safe to tell him he is DQd. That's asinine. Just because you call stop doesn't mean the only ending to that interaction is a DQ. Change the rule to attempt to holster with safety off is a DQ. I'll stop him then and let the RM figure out who to believe when the shooter starts the argument it was part of his routine. Not that it has anything to do with holstering but I won't stop a shooter when I just know in my gut he is going to swing on a target beyond the 180. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted February 7, 2019 Author Share Posted February 7, 2019 There's no need for a change. The rule covers it and if you changed it to what you suggested this terrible thread would just be twice as long with people arguing over what attempting to holster means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 On 2/7/2019 at 12:29 PM, waktasz said: There's no need for a change. The rule covers it and if you changed it to what you suggested this terrible thread would just be twice as long with people arguing over what attempting to holster means. I agree that we should not change it to "attempting to holster"...but I think it should be changed to "holstered" - either that or define "holstering" as "when the muzzle breaks the opening of the holster". I'd be good with that...because some seem to think that making a move towards the holster is "holstering" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davsco Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 On 2/6/2019 at 4:05 PM, racerba said: rule book: 8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face downrange, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and hearing protection, and prepare the firearm in accordance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the specified start position. The Range Officer will not proceed with any further range commands until the competitor is still and is in the correct start position. so the RO doesn't proceed until the shooter is in the correct Start Position (so stance and position/location, nothing to do with loaded or unloaded etc). maybe a little ambiguity comes into play regarding being loaded or not, as the RO shouldn't start a loaded and chambered competitor if the WSB says unloaded start. but we cannot or shouldn't stop him if he forgot to load and chamber on a loaded start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davsco Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 2 hours ago, racerba said: define "holstering" as "when the muzzle breaks the opening of the holster". need to take into account Open holsters. maybe say when the trigger guard starts coming into contact with the holster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, davsco said: need to take into account Open holsters. maybe say when the trigger guard starts coming into contact with the holster. or... any part of the gun touches the holster... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 10 minutes ago, davsco said: so the RO doesn't proceed until the shooter is in the correct Start Position (so stance and position/location, nothing to do with loaded or unloaded etc). maybe a little ambiguity comes into play regarding being loaded or not, as the RO shouldn't start a loaded and chambered competitor if the WSB says unloaded start. but we cannot or shouldn't stop him if he forgot to load and chamber on a loaded start. because a magazine in the gun is considered loaded... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 59 minutes ago, davsco said: so the RO doesn't proceed until the shooter is in the correct Start Position (so stance and position/location, nothing to do with loaded or unloaded etc). maybe a little ambiguity comes into play regarding being loaded or not, as the RO shouldn't start a loaded and chambered competitor if the WSB says unloaded start. but we cannot or shouldn't stop him if he forgot to load and chamber on a loaded start. “...prepare the firearm in accordance with the WSB” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 53 minutes ago, racerba said: or... any part of the gun touches the holster... That would be my take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 I don't understand why this is a 9 page debate on what defines a holstered gun. The gun is either Holstered or Drawn is it not? The rules clearly define what a Draw is as listed below. Using this definition, when there is no longer access to any portion of the interior of the trigger guard it is considered "Holstered". As soon as the gun is moved within the holster to allow access to any portion of the trigger guard, it is considered drawn. The rules that define what the penalties are for holstering a pistol with the safety off are also clearly defined. Draw - The point at which a handgun is removed or disengaged from the holster so as to allow access to any portion of the interior of the trigger guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrado_kid Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 So I read most of this and it’s all the same back back and forth argument, but I want to know the definitive ruling about the following. Under the make ready command - shooter cocks hammer and turns the safety on without drawing the gun. The shooters hand never leaves the gun and the gun never had a mag Inserted. - is this a dq? The gun is now ready as if they were ready to start the course of fire, but is simply making ready and taking a first sight picture while drawing on the first target they intend to engage once they load the gun and assume the ready position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted February 13, 2019 Author Share Posted February 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, Corrado_kid said: So I read most of this and it’s all the same back back and forth argument, but I want to know the definitive ruling about the following. Under the make ready command - shooter cocks hammer and turns the safety on without drawing the gun. The shooters hand never leaves the gun and the gun never had a mag Inserted. - is this a dq? No, because the gun isn't loaded. The gun is now ready as if they were ready to start the course of fire, but is simply making ready and taking a first sight picture while drawing on the first target they intend to engage once they load the gun and assume the ready position. What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 37 minutes ago, Corrado_kid said: Under the make ready command - shooter cocks hammer and turns the safety on without drawing the gun. The shooters hand never leaves the gun and the gun never had a mag Inserted. - is this a dq? NO The gun is now ready as if they were ready to start the course of fire, but is simply making ready and taking a first sight picture while drawing on the first target they intend to engage once they load the gun and assume the ready position. I DON’T GET IT. ARE YOU ASKING IF A SHOOTER CAN PRACTICE DRAWING TO A TARGET DURING MAKE READY? IF SO, USPSA YES, IPSC NO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrado_kid Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 18 minutes ago, Sarge said: We’re good on the clarification about cocking the hammer and engaging the saftery while the gun is holstered. Disregard the other part that was extra material that was not relevant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 On 2/6/2019 at 7:26 PM, egd5 said: This is the energizer bunny of threads. It keeps going and going and going...... I think some people just like to argue. I've run thousands of shooters at all levels of matches, and I have never yet seen someone fail to load in some way for a loaded start. I have seen people chamber a round , remove the barney mag, and forget to put in their start mag. I have also seen people put a magazine in and forget to rack the slide. But not one single time have I seen someone try to start without loading their gun according to the rules. Therefore, I think this whole discussion is just mental masturbation because it's too snowy outside to actually shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted February 13, 2019 Author Share Posted February 13, 2019 I've seen it, as a CRO at an area match. Seated loaded table start, all mags on table. Maybe 3 or 4 people didn't load their gun at all. I guess according to this thread I shouldn't have started them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrado_kid Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 10 minutes ago, waktasz said: I've seen it, as a CRO at an area match. Seated loaded table start, all mags on table. Maybe 3 or 4 people didn't load their gun at all. I guess according to this thread I shouldn't have started them? I would imagine that it relates back to rule 8.1 Also wsb is read for every competitor before the 5mins is started at a major. They also have the ability to read the wsb for their own benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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