waktasz Posted February 7, 2019 Author Share Posted February 7, 2019 21 hours ago, HCH said: Did we ever figure out what constitutes “holstering” and when to stop a shooter who is in violation of 10.5.11? When? As soon as he starts the motion toward the holster and you realize the gun is off safe. In fact, I just did this on Sunday. Relatively new looking shooter shooting a hammer fired HK gun with a decocker. 3 string classifier. He made ready and shot string one as expected. Then dropped his mag, topped off, chamber checked (all this is fine) then started his motion toward the holster with the hammer still back. STOP. huh? Decock that thing please. oh and all was well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 hour ago, waktasz said: When? As soon as he starts the motion toward the holster and you realize the gun is off safe. In fact, I just did this on Sunday. Relatively new looking shooter shooting a hammer fired HK gun with a decocker. 3 string classifier. He made ready and shot string one as expected. Then dropped his mag, topped off, chamber checked (all this is fine) then started his motion toward the holster with the hammer still back. STOP. huh? Decock that thing please. oh and all was well. So did he get DQed or no? This is the super grey area I was/am trying to figure out. The rule says “holstering.” Perhaps it should read “a competitor who holsters a handgun without the safety being applied” or at least a solid definition of when holstering begins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 hour ago, egd5 said: This is the energizer bunny of threads. It keeps going and going and going...... Round and round it goes, where it gets locked, nobody knows!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted February 7, 2019 Author Share Posted February 7, 2019 (edited) No. I stopped him before he could DQ himself because I saw what was about to happen. He corrected it and everything was fine. Holstering begins when the gun goes into the holster, no? Edited February 7, 2019 by waktasz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 3 hours ago, Sarge said: And like I said, loading for an unloaded start would be an advantage so I would remind him unloaded start. But not loading when he should falls under the shooter is responsible for his gun. 8.1 specifies the chamber. It says nothing about loading the firearm; Only about ammunition being placed into the chamber, which we all agree the RO doesn’t intervene with. If the WSB says loaded, there has to be some ammunition in the firearm. Half loaded mag, but loaded chamber; no mag but one in the chamber; full mag and chambered; full mag and nothing in the chamber; three rounds in a moonclip, etc. all meet this criteria. No mag and no ammunition do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 16 minutes ago, waktasz said: No. I stopped him before he could DQ himself because I saw what was about to happen. He corrected it and everything was fine. Holstering begins when the gun goes into the holster, no? I would agree 100% with that, and that is when I, using common sense and logic, would make that call. If you wade wade back to roughly page 3 of this mess (the first original post that wasn’t carried over from the PCC thread), you can see Troy’s answer to my question... which answered nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 3 hours ago, RJH said: 4 hours ago, Sarge said: I have read all I care to. My reading tells me I can’t start a shooter unless he is in the correct start position. It doesn’t say I can’t start him for being dumb and not loading his gun. I understand this is your opinion, i also understand that you still have never quoted a rule to support it. Interestingly enough, i have shown three rules that support my opinion. I will stick with what the rule book actually says and not what i feel it should say. And actually in the same sentence that is says a shooter must have eye and ear pro before they get in the start position, it says that their handgun must be in accordance with the wsb I may be wrong, but it sounds like Sarge is (still) saying just what I said. We must enforce their start position, but the condition of the firearm is on the shooter. If they insert a magazine and don't chamber a round, that's in accordance with the WSB, and the lack of a chambered round is on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 I would try not to define what is holstering, but rather did they sweep themselves. Most every holster I know of requires the muzzle to either drop into a pouch ie SS, Production, CO. or be placed on a peg/ trigger guard device in a manner that causes the muzzle to be pointed at the lower extremities. Doing this act with the hammer back and the safety on is an exemption, the hammer back without the safety on is a DQ for sweeping as soon as the muzzle crosses those lower extremities. So if the act of holstering advances to the point that they sweep themselves, DQ. If they catch it or if you stop them before they can sweep themselves, then no DQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 (edited) 20 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said: I may be wrong, but it sounds like Sarge is (still) saying just what I said. We must enforce their start position, but the condition of the firearm is on the shooter. If they insert a magazine and don't chamber a round, that's in accordance with the WSB, and the lack of a chambered round is on them. No, he has been saying that on a loaded start, if the competitor has a completely unloaded gun and assumes the start position, he would still start them and it would be their fault for having a completely unloaded gun. I and you, have said that they cannot be started because their gun does not meet the requirements of a loaded gun as per the wsb. Everyone is in agreement that if the gun is halfway loaded (ammo in chamber or in the mag only) that the requirement for a loaded gun has been met and you start the shooter and they deal with it. Edited February 7, 2019 by RJH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 minute ago, Poppa Bear said: I would try not to define what is holstering, but rather did they sweep themselves. Most every holster I know of requires the muzzle to either drop into a pouch ie SS, Production, CO. or be placed on a peg/ trigger guard device in a manner that causes the muzzle to be pointed at the lower extremities. Doing this act with the hammer back and the safety on is an exemption, the hammer back without the safety on is a DQ for sweeping as soon as the muzzle crosses those lower extremities. So if the act of holstering advances to the point that they sweep themselves, DQ. If they catch it or if you stop them before they can sweep themselves, then no DQ Probably the most reasonable explanation of what the definition of "while holstering" should be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 5 minutes ago, Poppa Bear said: I would try not to define what is holstering, but rather did they sweep themselves. Most every holster I know of requires the muzzle to either drop into a pouch ie SS, Production, CO. or be placed on a peg/ trigger guard device in a manner that causes the muzzle to be pointed at the lower extremities. Doing this act with the hammer back and the safety on is an exemption, the hammer back without the safety on is a DQ for sweeping as soon as the muzzle crosses those lower extremities. So if the act of holstering advances to the point that they sweep themselves, DQ. If they catch it or if you stop them before they can sweep themselves, then no DQ What’s your member number? I’m nominating you for DNROI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted February 7, 2019 Author Share Posted February 7, 2019 7 minutes ago, Poppa Bear said: I would try not to define what is holstering, but rather did they sweep themselves. Most every holster I know of requires the muzzle to either drop into a pouch ie SS, Production, CO. or be placed on a peg/ trigger guard device in a manner that causes the muzzle to be pointed at the lower extremities. Doing this act with the hammer back and the safety on is an exemption, the hammer back without the safety on is a DQ for sweeping as soon as the muzzle crosses those lower extremities. So if the act of holstering advances to the point that they sweep themselves, DQ. If they catch it or if you stop them before they can sweep themselves, then no DQ Except the rule you are referring to doesn't say anything about having the safety on, just that the finger must be outside of the trigger guard. 10.5.5.1 Exception – A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing or re- holstering a handgun, provided that the competitor’s fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. This exception is only for holstered handguns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 11 minutes ago, waktasz said: Except the rule you are referring to doesn't say anything about having the safety on, just that the finger must be outside of the trigger guard. 10.5.5.1 Exception – A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing or re- holstering a handgun, provided that the competitor’s fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. This exception is only for holstered handguns. But 10.5.11 comes into play also. 10.5.11 Holstering or placing a loaded firearm, in any of the following conditions: 10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading firearm with the safety not applied. If the primary safety on the firearm cannot be engaged due to the design of the firearm, and the hammer or trigger cannot be actuated in the condition the gun is in, the safety does not have to be applied. If the gun is completely empty, the safety need not be applied. In my opinion once they have advanced far enough into the holstering action to sweep their lower extremities then they can be DQed under 10.5.11.1 if the safety is not applied. The last sentence of 10.5.5.1 says it is only applicable to holstered handguns. If they complete the holstering then DQ under 10.5.11.1. If they do not complete the holstering then a DQ under 10.5.5 because they swept themselves without holstering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 I think Papa bear pretty much nailed it. Table start uses placed,, a past tense verb and then goes on to define the point at which it is placed. ( Hand off),, IMO done on purpose as on a table start you dont get a muzzle sweep or 180 exemption. "Holstering" Is a continuous tense verb.. There is no point in time when you are holstering. Its a continuous event. As soon as you start in that direction you are holstering. I also think this verb was used on purpose because of the sweeing/180 exemptions that come with the exemption,, so gun must be on safe during that action. Problem is, that would be near impossible to enforce. In USPSA we try to get away from mind reading intents. How many folks go to low ready when adjusting reddots ? or something else on gun. So really hard to enforce exactly when holstering starts. Logically we do have to look a bit at the intent of the rule,, and issue the DQ at the point where they are sweeping themselves. Then its a catch 22, issue the DQ for sweeping,,, if the competitor claims they were holstering, then the DQ is for holstering with the safety off. If the competitor manages to break the plain of the holster without sweeping then you go with the holstering rule. Also think it is fine to warn the competitor before sweeping themselves,, I mean thats a basic safety thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 3 hours ago, Joe4d said: Also think it is fine to warn the competitor before sweeping themselves,, I mean thats a basic safety thing. This makes the entire war and peace novel you attempted to write moot. If you think it’s ok to stop a shooter for what you think they may do you might as well just hit the beep and call stop. This way we don’t have to worry at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 7 hours ago, RJH said: No, he has been saying that on a loaded start, if the competitor has a completely unloaded gun and assumes the start position, he would still start them and it would be their fault for having a completely unloaded gun. I and you, have said that they cannot be started because their gun does not meet the requirements of a loaded gun as per the wsb. Everyone is in agreement that if the gun is halfway loaded (ammo in chamber or in the mag only) that the requirement for a loaded gun has been met and you start the shooter and they deal with it. Isn’t it their fault for having an unloaded gun? At what point in all of this are we going to make shooters responsible for their actions? Let’s say a shooter barney’s Up and the round doesn’t load. Then he inserts a mag he forgot to reload prior. BEEEEP. Click, rack click, etc. By your interpretation you have to stop him because the gun was never loaded. Granted, a lot of things have to come together in a perfect storm but it’s entirely possible. My point is, that’s his fault. So what do I do to prevent that? Check his mags are all loaded that he has on his belt? Physically look to make sure a round got chambered? Ask him to do a press check before I proceed with range commands? That’s just not going to happen. And it shouldn’t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 12 minutes ago, Sarge said: Isn’t it their fault for having an unloaded gun? At what point in all of this are we going to make shooters responsible for their actions? Let’s say a shooter barney’s Up and the round doesn’t load. Then he inserts a mag he forgot to reload prior. BEEEEP. Click, rack click, etc. By your interpretation you have to stop him because the gun was never loaded. Granted, a lot of things have to come together in a perfect storm but it’s entirely possible. My point is, that’s his fault. So what do I do to prevent that? Check his mags are all loaded that he has on his belt? Physically look to make sure a round got chambered? Ask him to do a press check before I proceed with range commands? That’s just not going to happen. And it shouldn’t. All i wish is that you would follow the rule book. 8.3.1, says that the gun MUST be prepared in accordance with the wsb. If it is a loaded start, there HAS to be some ammo in the gun somewhere to meet that REQUIREMENT. If the perfect storm happened and the gun was somehow not loaded on a loaded start, then you would need to restart the competitor or ideally never allow them to get in start position, just like if their eye or ear pro was not in. I mean damn, all three REQUIREMENTS are in the same sentence, and once again if you have a RULE, NOT A FEELING to support your position, please point it out. I completely understand what you think, but the rules as written DO NOT SUPPORT IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 30 minutes ago, RJH said: All i wish is that you would follow the rule book. 8.3.1, says that the gun MUST be prepared in accordance with the wsb. If it is a loaded start, there HAS to be some ammo in the gun somewhere to meet that REQUIREMENT. If the perfect storm happened and the gun was somehow not loaded on a loaded start, then you would need to restart the competitor or ideally never allow them to get in start position, just like if their eye or ear pro was not in. I mean damn, all three REQUIREMENTS are in the same sentence, and once again if you have a RULE, NOT A FEELING to support your position, please point it out. I completely understand what you think, but the rules as written DO NOT SUPPORT IT So in my example you would do all of the checks I mentioned? And if you missed a step you would stop him after the beep? Wow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 16 hours ago, RJH said: You really should reread what you posted, it absolutely says that must make the firearm ready in compliance with the wsb. The commas indicate a continued thought. i.e. they MUST put in eye pro, MUST put in ear pro, MUST get the handgun ready i accordance with the wsb. Then they get in the start position no it doesn't... the whole discussion is whether the RO is responsible for the competitor having a round in the chamber on a loaded start...so let me rephrase... All it says is that the RO supervises the competitor to "...prepare the firearm in accordance with the written stage briefing."...no where does it say that they MUST have a round in the chamber on a loaded start... As stated earlier, having a magazine in the gun constiture a loaded gun per definition of a loaded gun... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 26 minutes ago, Sarge said: So in my example you would do all of the checks I mentioned? And if you missed a step you would stop him after the beep? Wow Actually i would only make sure that the competitor appeared to load his gun as per the wsb, just like i would make sure that he had his eye and ear pro in, as required by 8.3.1 So would start a competitor without eye pro or ear pro? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 16 minutes ago, racerba said: no it doesn't... the whole discussion is whether the RO is responsible for the competitor having a round in the chamber on a loaded start...so let me rephrase... All it says is that the RO supervises the competitor to "...prepare the firearm in accordance with the written stage briefing."...no where does it say that they MUST have a round in the chamber on a loaded start... As stated earlier, having a magazine in the gun constiture a loaded gun per definition of a loaded gun... This discussion has nothing to do with a loaded chamber, only a loaded gun as per the USPSA glossary . Reading comprehension, its a good thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 6 minutes ago, RJH said: This discussion has nothing to do with a loaded chamber, only a loaded gun as per the USPSA glossary . Reading comprehension, its a good thing remembering how a discussion starts is also paramount...this discussion started out as a loaded chamber several pages back...and whether you can start the shooter with an empty chamber/gun...someone said you cannot start the shooter with an empty chamber... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted February 7, 2019 Author Share Posted February 7, 2019 This thread is a disaster and I fear for the future of our sport, especially now that it is more difficult to have an easily accessible rulebook on hand because of the lack of a printed copy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Just now, racerba said: remembering how a discussion starts is also paramount...this discussion started out as a loaded chamber several pages back...and whether you can start the shooter with an empty chamber/gun...someone said you cannot start the shooter with an empty chamber... Fair enough and i want to apologize for the snarkiness. I guess the discussion has evolved to starting a competitor with a known completely unloaded gun, there is no question that a partially loaded gun is on the competitor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 hour ago, racerba said: remembering how a discussion starts is also paramount...this discussion started out as a loaded chamber several pages back...and whether you can start the shooter with an empty chamber/gun...someone said you cannot start the shooter with an empty chamber... That was me. I was wrong on that point, but we have all decided that 8.1 covers it. Like 4 pages ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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