Holstering

[DKorn]

8 hours ago, bret said:

What is unclear about the rule being discussed here?

 

In the original scenario being discussed, nothing. 

 

In the rule itself, several things aren’t specified which could make certain scenarios unclear:

-What are the definitions of “holstering” and “placing” a firearm?

-When does holstering/placing begin and when does it end?

-When in the process of holstering/placing does the rule apply? I.e, when do you actually get the penalty?

 

For example, if you load your PCC but don’t put the safety on, and move it down towards the table it is specified to start on, but pull it back up to low ready before it touches the table and put the safety on, do you get a DQ? What about if the muzzled touches the table but the rest of the gun does not and you still have both hands on it? What if you only have one hand on it? What if it rests on the table but your hand(s) are still on it? Etc. 

 

Or, for a handgun, what if you move your gun towards your holster (after loading, safety off), but click the safety on before the muzzle enters the mouth of the holster? What about if the gun goes partway into the holster but isn’t fully holstered yet?

 

Obviously, this is reading way too much into the rules, but any ambiguity opens up arguments from range lawyers on both sides of the timer. 

[bret]

2 hours ago, DKorn said:

 

In the original scenario being discussed, nothing. 

 

In the rule itself, several things aren’t specified which could make certain scenarios unclear:

-What are the definitions of “holstering” and “placing” a firearm?

-When does holstering/placing begin and when does it end?

-When in the process of holstering/placing does the rule apply? I.e, when do you actually get the penalty?

 

For example, if you load your PCC but don’t put the safety on, and move it down towards the table it is specified to start on, but pull it back up to low ready before it touches the table and put the safety on, do you get a DQ? What about if the muzzled touches the table but the rest of the gun does not and you still have both hands on it? What if you only have one hand on it? What if it rests on the table but your hand(s) are still on it? Etc. 

 

Or, for a handgun, what if you move your gun towards your holster (after loading, safety off), but click the safety on before the muzzle enters the mouth of the holster? What about if the gun goes partway into the holster but isn’t fully holstered yet?

 

Obviously, this is reading way too much into the rules, but any ambiguity opens up arguments from range lawyers on both sides of the timer. 

Holstering is completed when there is no access to the trigger.

 

The gun is unholstered when there is access to the trigger.

 

If you are in the process of taking your gun out of the holster or putting it in the holster you are exempt from sweeping your lower extremities,  only if you don't have your finger inside the trigger guard. 

 

once the handgun or PCC is on the table and your hand comes off, if it is loaded safety not applied it is a DQ.

 

 

Edited January 31, 2019 by bret

[DKorn]

2 hours ago, bret said:

Holstering is completed when there is no access to the trigger.

 

The gun is unholstered when there is access to the trigger.

 

If you are in the process of taking your gun out of the holster or putting it in the holster you are exempt from sweeping your lower extremities,  only if you don't have your finger inside the trigger guard. 

 

once the handgun or PCC is on the table and your hand comes off, if it is loaded safety not applied it is a DQ.

 

 

 

So as long as you have the safety on before the  trigger guard is inaccessible while holstering or before you remove your hand from the firearm on a table, you would not be DQ’d? This is how I would interpret it as well, but I’m not sure what you would point to in the rulebook during arbitration. 

[HCH]

Holstering: I’m going to go with as soon as the pistol goes in the mouth of the holster. 

 

I disagree with the trigger access argument for this reason: I (and several others in my area) use a Safariland 014 or CR Speed holster, which has a muzzle support. Under the trigger guard argument one could load their pistol, stick the muzzle on the support, THEN apply the safety, and then rock the pistol back onto the lock. There’s a lot going on during the actual placement of a pistol into a holster, and if one gets dropped while loaded I’d much rather it be on safety. 

 

Placing: the instant you are no longer touching the firearm. 

[bret]

35 minutes ago, HCH said:

Holstering: I’m going to go with as soon as the pistol goes in the mouth of the holster. 

 

I disagree with the trigger access argument for this reason: I (and several others in my area) use a Safariland 014 or CR Speed holster, which has a muzzle support. Under the trigger guard argument one could load their pistol, stick the muzzle on the support, THEN apply the safety, and then rock the pistol back onto the lock. There’s a lot going on during the actual placement of a pistol into a holster, and if one gets dropped while loaded I’d much rather it be on safety. 

 

Placing: the instant you are no longer touching the firearm. 

Talk to Troy McManus on the access to the trigger, that is how he has explained it to me and others. 

 

You are trying to push what you think the rules should be,  I agree the gun should be on safe before it starts being holstered but that isn't how Troy explained it.

 

Ask him for clarification. 

 

[bret]

1 hour ago, DKorn said:

 

So as long as you have the safety on before the  trigger guard is inaccessible while holstering or before you remove your hand from the firearm on a table, you would not be DQ’d? This is how I would interpret it as well, but I’m not sure what you would point to in the rulebook during arbitration. 

This was how it was explained to me by Troy.

 

Example, if you holster your gun, flick the safety off while in the holster, it would be a DQ, it has to be on safe before holstering and remain on safe while in the holster and before it is un holstered.

 

Had a new shooter almost shoot himself in the foot, as soon as he drew the gun his finger went in the trigger guard and had a ND, he didn't have it on safe, r.o. missed it, luckily he didn't get hurt.

 

Another guy during practice had his finger in the trigger guard,  gun not on safe, shot himself as he holstered the gun.

 

I can look up the rules I think are applicable.

[HCH]

3 minutes ago, bret said:

Talk to Troy McManus on the access to the trigger, that is how he has explained it to me and others. 

 

You are trying to push what you think the rules should be,  I agree the gun should be on safe before it starts being holstered but that isn't how Troy explained it.

 

Ask him for clarification. 

 

 

1: I think that is bad practice. 

2: if I DQ a guy for holstering with the safety off, there is going to be no doubt that the pistol is “holstered.” As in, his hand is going to be off of the gun. That alleviates all of the “well I hadn’t fully completed the act” BS. And if it goes off and he shoots himself in the leg, it’s not my fault. 

 

That at being said, I fully stand my my previous position on the topic. 

[HCH]

3 minutes ago, bret said:

This was how it was explained to me by Troy.

 

Example, if you holster your gun, flick the safety off while in the holster, it would be a DQ, it has to be on safe before holstering and remain on safe while in the holster and before it is un holstered.

 

Had a new shooter almost shoot himself in the foot, as soon as he drew the gun his finger went in the trigger guard and had a ND, he didn't have it on safe, r.o. missed it, luckily he didn't get hurt.

 

Another guy during practice had his finger in the trigger guard,  gun not on safe, shot himself as he holstered the gun.

 

I can look up the rules I think are applicable.

 

Please do post the rules

[bret]

11 minutes ago, HCH said:

 

1: I think that is bad practice. 

2: if I DQ a guy for holstering with the safety off, there is going to be no doubt that the pistol is “holstered.” As in, his hand is going to be off of the gun. That alleviates all of the “well I hadn’t fully completed the act” BS. And if it goes off and he shoots himself in the leg, it’s not my fault. 

 

That at being said, I fully stand my my previous position on the topic. 

So you think it's ok for the gun to be holstered with the safety off as long as they have their hand on the gun?

[racerba]

If after the beep, the competitor simultaneously grips the pistol and draws the pistol, he also disengage the safety as the pistol is on it's way out of the holster, but not completely out, is he DQ?

[HCH]

26 minutes ago, bret said:

So you think it's ok for the gun to be holstered with the safety off as long as they have their hand on the gun?

 

Hell no. But since we can’t come up with a logical definition of what is/isn’t the act of holstering, we might as well remove all doubt that the infraction was committed.  

 

At what point do you define “access to the trigger”? Is that when the trigger guard gets to the mouth of the holster? When the trigger guard is half in the holster? When the pistol is fully seated/detented?

 

 

[HCH]

3 minutes ago, racerba said:

If after the beep, the competitor simultaneously grips the pistol and draws the pistol, he also disengage the safety as the pistol is on it's way out of the holster, but not completely out, is he DQ?

 

Technically yes, but good luck catching it. 

 

There’s a lot of grey area in all this. 

[racerba]

6 minutes ago, HCH said:

 

Technically yes, but good luck catching it. 

 

There’s a lot of grey area in all this. 

agreed...so if it's unenforceable and it's a grey line...I think that the definition of holstering should be changed to holstered...as in once the hand is taken off the gun...same as if it's placed...

 

[HCH]

6 minutes ago, racerba said:

agreed...so if it's unenforceable and it's a grey line...I think that the definition of holstering should be changed to holstered...as in once the hand is taken off the gun...same as if it's placed...

 

 

I’m going to stick with my previous assessment. As soon as the muzzle goes into the mouth of the holster or is placed on the muzzle support OR the trigger guard contacts the holster. The rule does say “holstering” which would indicate a process. It seems that our definition of when the process begins is the problem here. Thanks NROI. 

 

All of this is pretty menial in the grand scheme of things. I can remember one time in 10+ years of shooting that someone holstered a 2011 with the safety off, and nobody was getting out the calipers and protractors to see how far into the holster it got or when access to the trigger was denied. He made ready. He stuck his pistol in the holster. He dropped his hand like he was going to start the stage. We DQ’d him. 

Edited January 31, 2019 by HCH

[racerba]

5 minutes ago, HCH said:

 

I’m going to stick with my previous assessment. As soon as the muzzle goes into the mouth of the holster or is placed on the muzzle support OR the trigger guard contacts the holster. The rule does say “holstering” which would indicate a process. It seems that our definition of when the process begins is the problem here. Thanks NROI. 

 

All of this is pretty menial in the grand scheme of things. I can remember one time in 10+ years of shooting that someone holstered a 2011 with the safety off, and nobody was getting out the calipers and protractors to see how far into the holster it got or when access to the trigger was denied. He made ready. He stuck his pistol in the holster. He dropped his hand like he was going to start the stage. We DQ’d him. 

exactly...hand was off the pistol...clear and concise...

now...technically, if the competitor loads, and begins to move the pistol towards the holster, even by half an inch, he is "holstering"...

[bret]

11 minutes ago, racerba said:

exactly...hand was off the pistol...clear and concise...

now...technically, if the competitor loads, and begins to move the pistol towards the holster, even by half an inch, he is "holstering"...

 

[bret]

Above is what DNROI says.

 

You think it's ok to DQ someone for moving a gun towards a holster if the safety isn't applied?

Edited January 31, 2019 by bret

[HCH]

Can we get the definition of trigger access too?

[bret]

1 minute ago, HCH said:

Can we get the definition of trigger access too?

Send DNROI an email.

[racerba]

14 minutes ago, bret said:

 

that is the definition of "holstered"...the rule says holsterING...hence me saying that the definition of the DQ should be changed to "holstered" instead of holstering...

 

Edited January 31, 2019 by racerba
modified

[bret]

3 minutes ago, racerba said:

that is the definition of "holstered"...the rule says holsterING...hence me saying that the definition of the DQ should be changed to "holstered" instead of holstering...

 

Take it up with Troy.

 

It is pretty obvious what it means.

[HCH]

An email has been sent. 

[racerba]

2 minutes ago, bret said:

Take it up with Troy.

 

It is pretty obvious what it means.

not really obvious since there are 4 pages of this being discussed!!!

 

[bret]

5 minutes ago, racerba said:

not really obvious since there are 4 pages of this being discussed!!!

 

Just because people don't know, understand or want to range lawyer a rule, doesn't mean it isn't clear.

[racerba]

if it's clear, people would not be talking about it.  do you hear people discussing when a beep is a beep?  no - because it's clear...