RJH Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 1 hour ago, bret said: Quote that rule number? There is no reason to be a dick or make s#!t up, but it is a dick move to do anything other than follow the rules as written not your made up ideas of what should be done. Oh yeah, if troys ruling ain't enough you might check out 8.6.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, bret said: Read the range commands, tell me where after make ready it says you can tell them to put their safety on. Are you going to tell the shooter they forgot to rack the slide or put a magazine in their gun after the Make Ready? Once again read 8.6.1 And quit trying to make s#!t up and follow the rule book Edited February 4, 2019 by RJH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 (edited) Bret I have to disagree on this point, to deliberately allow someone to commit an unsafe act, when I can stop it makes no sense. I have stopped more than one from an AD at ULSC because I saw the round in the chamber. Have I been able to stop everyone, no I haven't. Many of those were due to "speed unloading" which prevented me from seeing the chamber. This is different from telling a shooter they forgot to insert a magazine. The failure to insert a magazine is not an unsafe act, unintentionally lighting one off at ULSC is. The RO is charged with "monitors safe competitor action" (7.1.1). I don't read monitors as acting as a potted plant, but to take proactive actions if possible. To not stop a competitor from committing an unsafe act, if possible, would make me remiss in my duty as a Range Officer. Edited February 4, 2019 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 4 hours ago, bret said: Read the range commands, tell me where after make ready it says you can tell them to put their safety on. Are you going to tell the shooter they forgot to rack the slide or put a magazine in their gun after the Make Ready? Please go back and review the responsibility of an RO...if you knowingly let a competitor holster an unsafe weapon, you sir violated your oath... Telling them to put safety on prior to pointing the gun at your feet or their legs constitute a safety issue. I am not going to let them break a shot into their leg or at my feet without trying to stop them... they forget to rack the slide or insert a magazine is, again, a completely different issue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 5 hours ago, bret said: Read the range commands, tell me where after make ready it says you can tell them to put their safety on. Are you going to tell the shooter they forgot to rack the slide or put a magazine in their gun after the Make Ready? 8.2.1 would make that a Texas sized 10-4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 1 hour ago, HCH said: 8.2.1 would make that a Texas sized 10-4. Negative 8.1 Firearm Ready Conditions The ready condition for firearms will normally be as stated below. However, in the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the written stage briefing, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the Range Officer must not take any action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the firearm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 While holstering is not defined, it may be worthwhile to consider it to be "breaking the envelope of the holster" with the firearm, intentionally or otherwise. If you are breaking the envelope of the holster without intending to holster the firearm where you are "safe" and end being holstered then you have possibly swept yourself anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 3 hours ago, Sarge said: Negative 8.1 Firearm Ready Conditions The ready condition for firearms will normally be as stated below. However, in the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the written stage briefing, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the Range Officer must not take any action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the firearm Yep. Missed that. But I’m gonna throw another wrench in this mess. 8.2.2 says that a competitor that does not assume the correct start position must reshoot the stage. I understand the difference in handgun ready position and competitor start position, but let’s say there is an unloaded table start and the competitor loads his firearm, places it (safely) and starts the stage. Do you say something or start him and reshoot? Or give a procedural? Seems like a slippery slope, and I hate reshooting competitors. Also 8.1 seems to really only “get” the newbs and dumbasses (like I said before about 10.5.11)... it’s not one that CONSTANTLY shows up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 Starting a shooter in the wrong start position is always on the RO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said: Starting a shooter in the wrong start position is always on the RO. I used to only want to see the rule book in black and white. There’s a lot of grey in it, and anymore common sense and taking the easy road is winning. Edited February 5, 2019 by HCH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 What does it take to convince you? Do you think it is possible to write a rule to cover every possible bit of foolishness our shooters can dream up? Part of our sport is historical knowledge that is passed down from generation to generation. This has its shortcomings, but not everything can be written down. I don't mean this as sarcastic, but an honest question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 9 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said: What does it take to convince you? Do you think it is possible to write a rule to cover every possible bit of foolishness our shooters can dream up? Part of our sport is historical knowledge that is passed down from generation to generation. This has its shortcomings, but not everything can be written down. I don't mean this as sarcastic, but an honest question. No.. I agree. I’m all about the “helping the shooter to safely navigate the stage” mindset. That does NOT include coaching during the course of fire but helping a shooter before the start signal or during ULSC is fine with me. If I need to tell a shooter “your pistol isn’t in the correct state” or “the correct start position is facing down range, wrists about shoulders” that’s fine. Less headache for me, and less headache for the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 Cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickBlasta Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 7 hours ago, HCH said: Yep. Missed that. But I’m gonna throw another wrench in this mess. 8.2.2 says that a competitor that does not assume the correct start position must reshoot the stage. I understand the difference in handgun ready position and competitor start position, but let’s say there is an unloaded table start and the competitor loads his firearm, places it (safely) and starts the stage. Do you say something or start him and reshoot? Or give a procedural? Seems like a slippery slope, and I hate reshooting competitors. Also 8.1 seems to really only “get” the newbs and dumbasses (like I said before about 10.5.11)... it’s not one that CONSTANTLY shows up. 8.3.1, the range officer will not proceed to "are you ready" until the competitor is in the correct start position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 8 hours ago, Gary Stevens said: Starting a shooter in the wrong start position is always on the RO. This Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 8 hours ago, HCH said: Yep. Missed that. But I’m gonna throw another wrench in this mess. 8.2.2 says that a competitor that does not assume the correct start position must reshoot the stage. I understand the difference in handgun ready position and competitor start position, but let’s say there is an unloaded table start and the competitor loads his firearm, places it (safely) and starts the stage. Do you say something or start him and reshoot? Or give a procedural? Seems like a slippery slope, and I hate reshooting competitors. Also 8.1 seems to really only “get” the newbs and dumbasses (like I said before about 10.5.11)... it’s not one that CONSTANTLY shows up. Correct. And a “dumbass” that doesn’t load his gun should get the exact results he deserves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 Starting a shooter in the wrong start position is always on the RO.But is it ok to start the shooter if they appear ready but it is a disadvantage to them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 If they are in the correct start position yes. We are people playing games with deadly weapons. The shooter bears ultimate responsibility to configure their weapon. That and their are specific rules prohibiting the RO from interfering in certain circumstances, as listed above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 (edited) 31 minutes ago, broadside72 said: 12 hours ago, Gary Stevens said: Starting a shooter in the wrong start position is always on the RO. But is it ok to start the shooter if they appear ready but it is a disadvantage to them? being ready in the start position is different than being ready...and you start them AFTER they do not signal that they are not ready...they may appear to be ready while they may not be...hence the command "Are You Ready?" You never know...they may want to start with an empty chamber...there are those who are adamant about carrying with an empty chamber... Edited February 5, 2019 by racerba added last line Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 being ready in the start position is different than being ready...and you start them AFTER they do not signal that they are not ready...they may appear to be ready while they may not be...hence the command "Are You Ready?" You never know...they may want to start with an empty chamber...there are those who are adamant about carrying with an empty chamber...If someone wants to face up range because they misread the WSB which says facing downrange, and I ask then if they are ready and I get no response, then I can start them without a reshoot? It's not like they were facing downrange on an up range start and getting an advantage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 28 minutes ago, broadside72 said: 12 hours ago, Gary Stevens said: Starting a shooter in the wrong start position is always on the RO. But is it ok to start the shooter if they appear ready but it is a disadvantage to them? Yes, it is a big boy sport. RO makes sure shooters KNOW what they are supposed to do by reading the WSB. They must be in the correct start position to start so the RO has to make sure that happens but the rest is on the shooter. NOW, if it is a brand new shooter at a level one and he doesn't have ammo on his belt then the rules allow assistance and I would probably ask him if he has enough ammo to complete the stage. But I started a seasoned shooter once at a level II who had no mags on his belt. Start mag was in his pocket. That was painful to watch but it is what it is. I have been the shooter and forgot to turn my dot on and had to do it on the fly. when I got finished the RO said he wondered how long it would take me to notice. We had a good laugh and drank a beer together after the match. He wasn't a dick. Just a good RO following the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, broadside72 said: 8 minutes ago, racerba said: being ready in the start position is different than being ready...and you start them AFTER they do not signal that they are not ready...they may appear to be ready while they may not be...hence the command "Are You Ready?" You never know...they may want to start with an empty chamber...there are those who are adamant about carrying with an empty chamber... If someone wants to face up range because they misread the WSB which says facing downrange, and I ask then if they are ready and I get no response, then I can start them without a reshoot? It's not like they were facing downrange on an up range start and getting an advantage Thats a start position. They must be in the correct start position to start. Doesn't matter if its an advantage or disadvantage etc. AS LONG AS IT's STATED IN WSB. 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. Edited February 5, 2019 by Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 3 minutes ago, broadside72 said: 10 minutes ago, racerba said: being ready in the start position is different than being ready...and you start them AFTER they do not signal that they are not ready...they may appear to be ready while they may not be...hence the command "Are You Ready?" You never know...they may want to start with an empty chamber...there are those who are adamant about carrying with an empty chamber... If someone wants to face up range because they misread the WSB which says facing downrange, and I ask then if they are ready and I get no response, then I can start them without a reshoot? It's not like they were facing downrange on an up range start and getting an advantage no - that's not the start position...reshoot!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 All seems counter to everything else being on the shooter if they choose a disadvantageous starting position. In sarge's example if the WSB says gun load and holstered and all mags on belt he could not have then let the guy start (if he didn't have the one mag in his pocket that is). Why do ROs need to cater to someone not getting an advantage because of their own mistake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, broadside72 said: All seems counter to everything else being on the shooter if they choose a disadvantageous starting position. In sarge's example if the WSB says gun load and holstered and all mags on belt he could not have then let the guy start (if he didn't have the one mag in his pocket that is). Why do ROs need to cater to someone not getting an advantage because of their own mistake? Because that's the rules...Start position is PART of the WSB...so if the competitor has 20 mags, he has to put ALL mags on belt??? And you answer your own question..."their own mistake" Edited February 5, 2019 by racerba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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