2019 Rulebook proposed change to ready condition for striker fired pistols

[regor]

The proposed rules for 2019 include a change (8.1.2.4)  that defines the safe condition for striker fired pistols as, "chamber loaded, handgun cocked, external safety engaged if present". I saw a discussion about this pop up on reddit.com/r/competitionshooting and thought I'd bring it here since this is a much more active community. What are people's thoughts on this?

 

My thoughts:

 

The rule seems inconsistent in its current form but the proposed change just makes it even more inconsistent. At present it is inconsistent, especially in Production where you could have a striker fired pistol with an ultra light trigger that is legal yet the folks running running DA/SA have to start de-cocked and deal with a heavy first shot. Doesn't seem fair to the folks running DA/SA, but I suppose the perks of the DA/SA is access to more all-steel pistol, so at least you get something in return?

 

The proposed change doesn't fix the above inconsistency since many striker fired pistols have no external safety and creates a further inconsistency within the set of striker fired pistols. This adds additional complexity for ROs to track and opens up a subset of striker fired pistol users to a DQ-able offense that the rest aren't subject to, which seems especially unfair since the new "unsafe" condition is the same as the "safe" condition for striker fired pistols with no safety. 

 

It's far from a perfect adjustment, and if it passes it brings up the question of why DA/SA pistols with a safety shouldn't be required to be de-cocked *and* have the safety on to bring all pistols to a consistent standard of "safest possible condition". IMO that's the most consistent ruling short of saying "all pistols must be DA or have a safety", but it suffers the same complexity issues as the above. 

 

The simplest thing to do is seems to be removing references to "selective action" firearms from the rule book since they are a subset of DA pistols and add in striker fired pistols, then keep the ready condition consistent for each category. Striker is carried as the current rules. Anything with the ability to function in double action has to start hammer down. It still leaves the inconsistency between DA/SA and striker fired pistols, but and it leaves only 3 different ready conditions to keep track of as opposed to the current 4 and the proposed 5. The pistols I can think of that would be harmed of that would be ones like the Shadow 2, which are designed with production in mind but could be run cocked with safety in Limited minor, but that's already a handicap, so even though some people would still probably complain, it seems like the least reasonable to complain about.

[HoMiE]

So wait, the da/sa shooters wants to start cocked and safety on now?

 

Nobody shoots striker fired guns anymore anyways so it doesn’t matter. 

Edited December 11, 2018 by HoMiE

[Out of Ammo]

5 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

Nobody shoots striker fired guns anymore anyways so it doesn’t matter. 

[StealthyBlagga]

 Nobody is forcing anyone to shoot any particular gun... this change just clarifies how to handle striker fired guns with safeties that has outpaced the old rules. Sounds like an improvement to me. We fixed the same issue in IMA 3-Gun rules this year.

[GrumpyOne]

On some DA/SA guns (Shadow 1, for example) the safety cannot be engaged with the hammer down.

[David.Hylton]

There are a couple of variables you didn't seem to consider.  

 

Double action seems to mean DA only guns. So, DAO guns are loaded and hammer is down.

 

Some striker fired guns only have external safeties. They don't have tabbed trigger safeties like the Glock trigger. The Sig P320 is available with a standard trigger with a manual safety. 

https://www.sigsauer.com/products/firearms/pistols/p320/

 

Under your rule adjustment they could be holstered with no external safety or internal safety activated .

 

The new rules add complexity, but it is a more complicated shooting world.  RO's already have to remember variations based on the division. 

 

[regor]

8 minutes ago, David.Hylton said:

Double action seems to mean DA only guns. So, DAO guns are loaded and hammer is down.

Yes, I agree with that interpretation of the current rules, which is why I said it would be simpler to just get rid of the language related to "selective action" and just lump DAO and DA/SA together. Ready condition for both = hammer down/decocked. 

 

9 minutes ago, David.Hylton said:

Some striker fired guns only have external safeties. They don't have tabbed trigger safeties like the Glock trigger. The Sig P320 is available with a standard trigger with a manual safety. 

https://www.sigsauer.com/products/firearms/pistols/p320/

 

Under your rule adjustment they could be holstered with no external safety or internal safety activated .

That's how it currently is and the new rule doesn't change that. The proposed rule doesn't require striker fired guns to have an external safety or any internal safeties, only that it be engaged if it does have one. The P320 is available in versions without a manual safety and I see plenty of people running them. If a handgun currently passes 5.1.4, that the "trigger mechanism must, at all times, function safely", and 5.1.6 that all handguns must be "serviceable and safe", then it will still pass after these revisions. If it fails 5.1.4 with no manual safety then I don't see how it will pass by just adding one, since at some point the safety will be off and therefore it will not be safe "at all times". Why should a model with a safety by treated to a different set of rules than the same pistol with a manual safety added but otherwise identical internals? It just adds confusion. 

 

Changes need to be justified. You can't just say, "the rulebook is already complicated and messy so it's fine to make it even more complicated". What does this rule actually address? 

[PatJones]

I see no problem with this.

If the manufacturer thought it was necessary to include a safety, it should be used unless the gun is decocked. Hell, I'm a revolver shooter and even I can remember that when ROing shooters.

[broadside72]

The simplest form of rules here are either

1) start in whatever condition you want, unless otherwise specified in the WSB

2) start in the safest mode possible via OEM functionality, excluding integrated locks, unless otherwise specified in the WSB

[regor]

21 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

The simplest form of rules here are either

1) start in whatever condition you want, unless otherwise specified in the WSB

2) start in the safest mode possible via OEM functionality, excluding integrated locks, unless otherwise specified in the WSB

I agree that #1 is the absolute most simple way to run it, but I think it would be challenged as unsafe since you would have folks running 1.5# trigger race guns holstering with no safety on. That can absolutely be done safely, but it's opening the door wide open for a ND when someone catches the trigger on something. 

 

I addressed #2 in my initial comment as "safest possible condition". It is simple from the shooter's side, but more complex from an enforcement/rules side. An SP-01, SP-01 converted to SAO, and an SP-01 Tactical all have different safest possible conditions even though they look very similar from the outside. Throw in the 75 Omega series for good measure since it has a convertible decocker/safety just to create additional confusion. The consequence of that change is every RO needs to be much more familiar with all possible configurations of any pistol in order to ensure that the rules are consistently applied. 

[broadside72]

For #1 I was assuming safety on if cocked. So DA/SA can go cocked and locked if they want like in Limited

 

[rustychev]

What if any striker guns have a external safety?  Sorry Im asking because I cant think of any.

[Sarge]

1 minute ago, rustychev said:

What if any striker guns have a external safety?  Sorry Im asking because I cant think of any.

M&P

[GrumpyOne]

36 minutes ago, Sarge said:

M&P

And, technically, a Springfield XDM...it has a grip safety that must be depressed to be fired.

[Sarge]

3 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

And, technically, a Springfield XDM...it has a grip safety that must be depressed to be fired.

yeah but technically the rule in question says safe condition external safety engaged. You can't engage a grip safety unless gripping the gun and this rule is talking about ready conditions.

[regor]

FNS 9 is an example of one that can be purchased in both a manual safety and no manual safety version. It also has a particularly small safety (though it is ambi), so it would be easy for an RO to miss, especially if they haven't seen the MS version since it is less common. 

[JAFO]

I don't see this as extremely burdensome to the RO's.  It's pretty easy to tell if a shooter has a gun with a manual safety.  I agree it's not equitable for someone with a manual safety M&P or 320 to be required to use the safety if someone else with a non-safety version doesn't, but USPSA didn't choose your gun, you did.  This would be more of a DQ hazard for the uninformed shooter who may have used their manual safety pistol without the safety previously.

[rustychev]

I guess I will have to watch closer.  I had no idea any of the sticker guns had thumb safeties.

[Garmil]

If your striker fired gun has a safety engage it.

 

Everyone else proceed as normal.

 

Dont see what's so complicated.

[Artyforty]

23 hours ago, regor said:

FNS 9 is an example of one that can be purchased in both a manual safety and no manual safety version. It also has a particularly small safety (though it is ambi), so it would be easy for an RO to miss, especially if they haven't seen the MS version since it is less common. 

I've shot an FNS for 4 years now in production and CO with the MS, would suck to have to start using that tiny safety ( which an RO would have to be really looking close to see if it was on or off )!

I actually have both the MS and non MS so guess I'll be swapping frames to the non MS for my match gun.

[B_RAD]

Any striker fired gun with a saftey is seldomly used. Most end up choosing something different. So, mostly only newer shooters would be affected. While still probably not the best choice and you don't want to put new shooters at an even more disadvantage, it's not really a big deal. USPSA is a sport. 99.9% want to game and choose gear that minimizes shortcomings like a saftey that may be an issue for the. 

 

So, don't shoot an M&P w/ saftey. 

 

Edited December 13, 2018 by B_RAD

[HCH]

On 12/12/2018 at 7:13 PM, Garmil said:

If your striker fired gun has a safety engage it.

 

Everyone else proceed as normal.

 

Dont see what's so complicated.

 

Thats what I thought too