Virginia stage penalty question

[a matt]

1 hour ago, theWacoKid said:

 

While I like Virginia count, I totally understand why IPSC axed it.

 

Plus 1, with that line of thinking. IPSC has some  rules that I like and some I don’t and

vise-versa. But that’s a different topic. 

 

[HoMiE]

Never heard of Virginia count having be shot in a specific shooting order, the ROs got that call wrong and surprised more people did t speak up about it. 1 extra shot penalty, that’s it. 

[AWLAZS]

Virginia count is dumb. 

[IHAVEGAS]

57 minutes ago, AWLAZS said:

Virginia count is dumb. 

 

Maybe  

 

At locals it is interesting to have all the semi autos at closer to equal footing and see how you do.  

[JAFO]

On ‎11‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 4:25 PM, RJH said:

 

 

I agree, but think you quoted the wrong guy

 

It sounded so wonky, I assumed it was a local match, where the MD and RM are often one and the same.

 

I tried to find the Nationals stages online, but couldn't.  I'd really like to see the WSB wording.

Edited November 9, 2018 by JAFO

[theWacoKid]

24 minutes ago, JAFO said:

 

It sounded so wonky, I assumed it was a local match, where the MD and RM are often one and the same.

 

I tried to find the Nationals stages online, but couldn't.  I'd really like to see the WSB wording.

 

https://uspsa.org/matchbooks/Optics/#page=41

[teros135]

It's one procedural, for the extra shot.  There's no reload penalty,  as he reloaded at the proper time.  It appears the RO needs some remedial instruction .

[JAFO]

36 minutes ago, theWacoKid said:

 

https://uspsa.org/matchbooks/Optics/#page=41

 

Thanks for the link.

 

So the WSB states the reload just has to happen between T1 and T2/T3.  Don't see how they could possibly assess a procedural for reloading in the wrong order.

 

[Poppa Bear]

9.4.5.1

   Extra shots (i.e. shots fired in excess of the number specified in a  component  string  or  stage),  will  each  incur  one  procedural  penalty.   Additionally,   during   scoring,   no   more   than   the   specified number and highest scoring hits will be awarded.

 

9.4.5.2

   Extra hits (i.e. hits on the scoring area of scoring paper targets in excess of the total number specified in the stage), will each incur  one  procedural  penalty.  Note  that  hits  on  hard cover  and/or no-shoots are not treated as Extra Hits.

 

 

10.2.2.1

  Procedural    penalties    for    failure    to    comply    with    stage    procedures do not apply to the number of shots fired. Penalties for firing insufficient or additional shots are addressed in other rules and must not be penalized under the provisions of 10.2.2.

 

 

10.2.4

   A  competitor  who  fails  to  comply  with  a  mandatory  reload  will  incur  one  procedural  penalty  for  each  shot  fired  after  the  point  where  the  reload was required until a reload is performed.

 

 

Ok, I see one procedural for 9.4.5.1 due to the extra shot.  I do not see any for 9.4.5.2 because we do not have an extra hit.  I do not see any for 10.2.2.1 because that is addressed in 9.4.5.1 and 9.4.5.2.  I do not see any for 10.2.4 because he reloaded at the required time which was between T-1 and T-2.   

 

Under 10.2.2.1 it specifically states that "Procedural    penalties    for    failure    to    comply    with    stage    procedures do not apply to the number of shots fired. " So we cannot have any procedurals for each shot fired after the reload due to him firing  3 times before the reload.

[RJH]

10 minutes ago, Poppa Bear said:

9.4.5.1

   Extra shots (i.e. shots fired in excess of the number specified in a  component  string  or  stage),  will  each  incur  one  procedural  penalty.   Additionally,   during   scoring,   no   more   than   the   specified number and highest scoring hits will be awarded.

 

9.4.5.2

   Extra hits (i.e. hits on the scoring area of scoring paper targets in excess of the total number specified in the stage), will each incur  one  procedural  penalty.  Note  that  hits  on  hard cover  and/or no-shoots are not treated as Extra Hits.

 

 

10.2.2.1

  Procedural    penalties    for    failure    to    comply    with    stage    procedures do not apply to the number of shots fired. Penalties for firing insufficient or additional shots are addressed in other rules and must not be penalized under the provisions of 10.2.2.

 

 

10.2.4

   A  competitor  who  fails  to  comply  with  a  mandatory  reload  will  incur  one  procedural  penalty  for  each  shot  fired  after  the  point  where  the  reload was required until a reload is performed.

 

 

Ok, I see one procedural for 9.4.5.1 due to the extra shot.  I do not see any for 9.4.5.2 because we do not have an extra hit.  I do not see any for 10.2.2.1 because that is addressed in 9.4.5.1 and 9.4.5.2.  I do not see any for 10.2.4 because he reloaded at the required time which was between T-1 and T-2.   

 

Under 10.2.2.1 it specifically states that "Procedural    penalties    for    failure    to    comply    with    stage    procedures do not apply to the number of shots fired. " So we cannot have any procedurals for each shot fired after the reload due to him firing  3 times before the reload.

 

Nailed it!

[a matt]

I cant believe I was able to upload a pic. with my limited knowledge about uploading pics to this site.  

Edited November 10, 2018 by a matt

[pskys2]

Definitely send an email to DROI, they can clear it up.  They should do an after match critique to keep the quality up.

Unless there is something else involved the RO's actions and reasoning  needs to be addressed.

[highhope]

Just one extra shot penalty. 

 

[CHA-LEE]

I think a better question is this....... How do we end up with this level of RO incompetence at the Nationals? That is really poor skill vetting of the match staff to get someone that misguided on the rules officiating a nationals.

 

I also want to point out that its ultimately up to the shooter to ensure that rules are applied properly. This is why a ruling escalation and arbitration process is clearly defined in the rule book. If that situation happened to me I would have the RO's call for the RM to get the situation resolved. If the RM felt like upholding their call I would have $100 in hand immediately ready to arbitrate. There is a reason why I go to EVERY match with a fresh $100 bill in my wallet......

Edited November 13, 2018 by CHA-LEE

[Jollymon32]

5 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

I think a better question is this....... How do we end up with this level of RO incompetence at the Nationals? That is really poor skill vetting of the match staff to get someone that misguided on the rules officiating a nationals.

 

 

I concur.  It was pretty bad.  

 

I was was told that there were issues getting enough officials due to the length of the event.  Turns out that the majority of the people that can take 9 days off to volunteer are retired folks - and thus the high number of octogenarian officials.

 

It was my first and for the foreseeable future, probably my only Nationals.  I love the sport, but 3 days of what felt like a level 2 match was a bit much.  I think my enjoyable limit is two days of shooting.

[stick]

On 11/8/2018 at 11:09 AM, jcc7x7 said:

One penalty at the line for an extra shot

Then

If the target has an extra hit another penalty for the extra hit on the target

 

On 11/8/2018 at 11:39 AM, theWacoKid said:

 

This is it.  An extra shot penalty, then go score targets appropriately.

In a Virginia Count Course of Fire or a Fixed Time Course of Fire:

9.4.5.1

Extra shots (i.e. shots fired in excess of the number specified in

a component string or stage), will each incur one procedural

penalty. Additionally, during scoring, no more than the

specified number and highest scoring hits will be awarded.

9.4.5.2

Extra hits (i.e. hits on the scoring area of scoring paper targets

in excess of the total number specified in the stage), will each

incur one procedural penalty. Note that hits on hard cover

and/or no -shoots are not treated as Extra Hits.

9.4.5.2.1

On a course of fire using a common firing line (see

Rule 2.1.7), a competitor may not be credited or

penalized for any scoring or penalty hit(s) which can

reasonably be determined by the Range Officer (by

caliber, grease mark, or angle of hit) to have been

fired by an adjacent competitor.

[IHAVEGAS]

6 hours ago, Jollymon32 said:

I was was told that there were issues getting enough officials due to the length of the event.  Turns out that the majority of the people that can take 9 days off to volunteer are retired folks - and thus the high number of octogenarian officials.

 

Probably retired folks who were dead on their feet as well, particularly those that had been part of the set up and administration and all of the noise and confusion that can happen before the first shot is fired..

 

6 hours ago, Jollymon32 said:

I think my enjoyable limit is two days of shooting.

 

My favorite match is a well run local that they stretch to 8 full stages (and have a meal afterwards) once per year. I never wish there was another stage or two. 

[bret]

On 11/9/2018 at 9:24 AM, Balakay said:

The fact that this happened at Nats blows my mind. Sounds like local match shenanigans. 

You would be surprised at what happened at Nationals this year.

 

They had some very good range officers,  but also bad ones as well.

 

 

[bret]

21 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

I think a better question is this....... How do we end up with this level of RO incompetence at the Nationals? That is really poor skill vetting of the match staff to get someone that misguided on the rules officiating a nationals.

 

I also want to point out that its ultimately up to the shooter to ensure that rules are applied properly. This is why a ruling escalation and arbitration process is clearly defined in the rule book. If that situation happened to me I would have the RO's call for the RM to get the situation resolved. If the RM felt like upholding their call I would have $100 in hand immediately ready to arbitrate. There is a reason why I go to EVERY match with a fresh $100 bill in my wallet......

USPSA chose not to staff it adequately,  I can only assume to save a few dollars on per diem.

 

I volunteered to help since I was there anyway,  Troy said he had enough people but he ended up running a stage because they were so short staffed.

[LilBunniFuFu]

The second procedural I got was given under 10.2.4 The explanation was that the stage procedure state engage with only two rounds then a mandatory reload. So I got on for an extra shot on virginia count and one for reloading at the wrong time. Also of note the CRO of the stage is a well known one who works lots of matches here and abroad. MD's a few of them as well. 

[bret]

Just now, LilBunniFuFu said:

The second procedural I got was given under 10.2.4 The explanation was that the stage procedure state engage with only two rounds then a mandatory reload. So I got on for an extra shot on virginia count and one for reloading at the wrong time. Also of note the CRO of the stage is a well known one who works lots of matches here and abroad. MD's a few of them as well. 

What stage was it?

[LilBunniFuFu]

Same stage in question. The WSB has been posted a few times. I just looked in the competitor app and found the exact procedure they dinged me with. 

[CHA-LEE]

A procedural was assessed because insufficient rounds were fired before the reload? That is not a valid penalty. Sounds like even more failboat was happening on this stage than we initially thought.

[bret]

6 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

A procedural was assessed because insufficient rounds were fired before the reload? That is not a valid penalty. Sounds like even more failboat was happening on this stage than we initially thought.

I think they assessed a procedural because instead of 2 shots being fired at T1 before the reload,  3 shots were fired. 

 

That is not the way it should be scored,  it would be 1 procedural for 1 extra shot fired.

 

If there were 3 hits on T1 it would be 1 procedural for extra hit on target, but the shooter made up a Mike.

 

The procedural for not following the WSB was wrongly given. 

 

The RM should have been called.

[CHA-LEE]

If the WSB said only 2 shots, reload, bla bla bla and the shooter fired 3 shots before the reload then there are only two valid Penalties. 1 Extra shot, which was earned when it was fired. Then 1 Extra Hit if there was in fact an extra hit on the target. If no Extra Hit was on the target then only 1 procedural should have been assessed for the Extra Shot. Rule 10.2.2.1 clearly defines that you CAN NOT assess additional penalties for not complying with the stage procedures when associated with the number of shots fired.

 

10.2.2.1 - Procedural penalties for failure to comply with stage procedures do not apply to the number of shots fired. Penalties for firing insufficient or additional shots are addressed in other rules and must not be penalized under the provisions of 10.2.2