a matt Posted November 9, 2018 Author Share Posted November 9, 2018 1 hour ago, theWacoKid said: While I like Virginia count, I totally understand why IPSC axed it. Plus 1, with that line of thinking. IPSC has some rules that I like and some I don’t and vise-versa. But that’s a different topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 Never heard of Virginia count having be shot in a specific shooting order, the ROs got that call wrong and surprised more people did t speak up about it. 1 extra shot penalty, that’s it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWLAZS Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 Virginia count is dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 57 minutes ago, AWLAZS said: Virginia count is dumb. Maybe At locals it is interesting to have all the semi autos at closer to equal footing and see how you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 (edited) On 11/8/2018 at 4:25 PM, RJH said: I agree, but think you quoted the wrong guy It sounded so wonky, I assumed it was a local match, where the MD and RM are often one and the same. I tried to find the Nationals stages online, but couldn't. I'd really like to see the WSB wording. Edited November 9, 2018 by JAFO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theWacoKid Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 24 minutes ago, JAFO said: It sounded so wonky, I assumed it was a local match, where the MD and RM are often one and the same. I tried to find the Nationals stages online, but couldn't. I'd really like to see the WSB wording. https://uspsa.org/matchbooks/Optics/#page=41 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 It's one procedural, for the extra shot. There's no reload penalty, as he reloaded at the proper time. It appears the RO needs some remedial instruction . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 36 minutes ago, theWacoKid said: https://uspsa.org/matchbooks/Optics/#page=41 Thanks for the link. So the WSB states the reload just has to happen between T1 and T2/T3. Don't see how they could possibly assess a procedural for reloading in the wrong order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted November 10, 2018 Share Posted November 10, 2018 9.4.5.1 Extra shots (i.e. shots fired in excess of the number specified in a component string or stage), will each incur one procedural penalty. Additionally, during scoring, no more than the specified number and highest scoring hits will be awarded. 9.4.5.2 Extra hits (i.e. hits on the scoring area of scoring paper targets in excess of the total number specified in the stage), will each incur one procedural penalty. Note that hits on hard cover and/or no-shoots are not treated as Extra Hits. 10.2.2.1 Procedural penalties for failure to comply with stage procedures do not apply to the number of shots fired. Penalties for firing insufficient or additional shots are addressed in other rules and must not be penalized under the provisions of 10.2.2. 10.2.4 A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed. Ok, I see one procedural for 9.4.5.1 due to the extra shot. I do not see any for 9.4.5.2 because we do not have an extra hit. I do not see any for 10.2.2.1 because that is addressed in 9.4.5.1 and 9.4.5.2. I do not see any for 10.2.4 because he reloaded at the required time which was between T-1 and T-2. Under 10.2.2.1 it specifically states that "Procedural penalties for failure to comply with stage procedures do not apply to the number of shots fired. " So we cannot have any procedurals for each shot fired after the reload due to him firing 3 times before the reload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted November 10, 2018 Share Posted November 10, 2018 10 minutes ago, Poppa Bear said: 9.4.5.1 Extra shots (i.e. shots fired in excess of the number specified in a component string or stage), will each incur one procedural penalty. Additionally, during scoring, no more than the specified number and highest scoring hits will be awarded. 9.4.5.2 Extra hits (i.e. hits on the scoring area of scoring paper targets in excess of the total number specified in the stage), will each incur one procedural penalty. Note that hits on hard cover and/or no-shoots are not treated as Extra Hits. 10.2.2.1 Procedural penalties for failure to comply with stage procedures do not apply to the number of shots fired. Penalties for firing insufficient or additional shots are addressed in other rules and must not be penalized under the provisions of 10.2.2. 10.2.4 A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed. Ok, I see one procedural for 9.4.5.1 due to the extra shot. I do not see any for 9.4.5.2 because we do not have an extra hit. I do not see any for 10.2.2.1 because that is addressed in 9.4.5.1 and 9.4.5.2. I do not see any for 10.2.4 because he reloaded at the required time which was between T-1 and T-2. Under 10.2.2.1 it specifically states that "Procedural penalties for failure to comply with stage procedures do not apply to the number of shots fired. " So we cannot have any procedurals for each shot fired after the reload due to him firing 3 times before the reload. Nailed it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted November 10, 2018 Author Share Posted November 10, 2018 (edited) I cant believe I was able to upload a pic. with my limited knowledge about uploading pics to this site. Edited November 10, 2018 by a matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Definitely send an email to DROI, they can clear it up. They should do an after match critique to keep the quality up. Unless there is something else involved the RO's actions and reasoning needs to be addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highhope Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 Just one extra shot penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 (edited) I think a better question is this....... How do we end up with this level of RO incompetence at the Nationals? That is really poor skill vetting of the match staff to get someone that misguided on the rules officiating a nationals. I also want to point out that its ultimately up to the shooter to ensure that rules are applied properly. This is why a ruling escalation and arbitration process is clearly defined in the rule book. If that situation happened to me I would have the RO's call for the RM to get the situation resolved. If the RM felt like upholding their call I would have $100 in hand immediately ready to arbitrate. There is a reason why I go to EVERY match with a fresh $100 bill in my wallet...... Edited November 13, 2018 by CHA-LEE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jollymon32 Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 5 hours ago, CHA-LEE said: I think a better question is this....... How do we end up with this level of RO incompetence at the Nationals? That is really poor skill vetting of the match staff to get someone that misguided on the rules officiating a nationals. I concur. It was pretty bad. I was was told that there were issues getting enough officials due to the length of the event. Turns out that the majority of the people that can take 9 days off to volunteer are retired folks - and thus the high number of octogenarian officials. It was my first and for the foreseeable future, probably my only Nationals. I love the sport, but 3 days of what felt like a level 2 match was a bit much. I think my enjoyable limit is two days of shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stick Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 On 11/8/2018 at 11:09 AM, jcc7x7 said: One penalty at the line for an extra shot Then If the target has an extra hit another penalty for the extra hit on the target On 11/8/2018 at 11:39 AM, theWacoKid said: This is it. An extra shot penalty, then go score targets appropriately. In a Virginia Count Course of Fire or a Fixed Time Course of Fire: 9.4.5.1 Extra shots (i.e. shots fired in excess of the number specified in a component string or stage), will each incur one procedural penalty. Additionally, during scoring, no more than the specified number and highest scoring hits will be awarded. 9.4.5.2 Extra hits (i.e. hits on the scoring area of scoring paper targets in excess of the total number specified in the stage), will each incur one procedural penalty. Note that hits on hard cover and/or no -shoots are not treated as Extra Hits. 9.4.5.2.1 On a course of fire using a common firing line (see Rule 2.1.7), a competitor may not be credited or penalized for any scoring or penalty hit(s) which can reasonably be determined by the Range Officer (by caliber, grease mark, or angle of hit) to have been fired by an adjacent competitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 6 hours ago, Jollymon32 said: I was was told that there were issues getting enough officials due to the length of the event. Turns out that the majority of the people that can take 9 days off to volunteer are retired folks - and thus the high number of octogenarian officials. Probably retired folks who were dead on their feet as well, particularly those that had been part of the set up and administration and all of the noise and confusion that can happen before the first shot is fired.. 6 hours ago, Jollymon32 said: I think my enjoyable limit is two days of shooting. My favorite match is a well run local that they stretch to 8 full stages (and have a meal afterwards) once per year. I never wish there was another stage or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 On 11/9/2018 at 9:24 AM, Balakay said: The fact that this happened at Nats blows my mind. Sounds like local match shenanigans. You would be surprised at what happened at Nationals this year. They had some very good range officers, but also bad ones as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 21 hours ago, CHA-LEE said: I think a better question is this....... How do we end up with this level of RO incompetence at the Nationals? That is really poor skill vetting of the match staff to get someone that misguided on the rules officiating a nationals. I also want to point out that its ultimately up to the shooter to ensure that rules are applied properly. This is why a ruling escalation and arbitration process is clearly defined in the rule book. If that situation happened to me I would have the RO's call for the RM to get the situation resolved. If the RM felt like upholding their call I would have $100 in hand immediately ready to arbitrate. There is a reason why I go to EVERY match with a fresh $100 bill in my wallet...... USPSA chose not to staff it adequately, I can only assume to save a few dollars on per diem. I volunteered to help since I was there anyway, Troy said he had enough people but he ended up running a stage because they were so short staffed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilBunniFuFu Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 The second procedural I got was given under 10.2.4 The explanation was that the stage procedure state engage with only two rounds then a mandatory reload. So I got on for an extra shot on virginia count and one for reloading at the wrong time. Also of note the CRO of the stage is a well known one who works lots of matches here and abroad. MD's a few of them as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 Just now, LilBunniFuFu said: The second procedural I got was given under 10.2.4 The explanation was that the stage procedure state engage with only two rounds then a mandatory reload. So I got on for an extra shot on virginia count and one for reloading at the wrong time. Also of note the CRO of the stage is a well known one who works lots of matches here and abroad. MD's a few of them as well. What stage was it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilBunniFuFu Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 Same stage in question. The WSB has been posted a few times. I just looked in the competitor app and found the exact procedure they dinged me with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 A procedural was assessed because insufficient rounds were fired before the reload? That is not a valid penalty. Sounds like even more failboat was happening on this stage than we initially thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 6 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said: A procedural was assessed because insufficient rounds were fired before the reload? That is not a valid penalty. Sounds like even more failboat was happening on this stage than we initially thought. I think they assessed a procedural because instead of 2 shots being fired at T1 before the reload, 3 shots were fired. That is not the way it should be scored, it would be 1 procedural for 1 extra shot fired. If there were 3 hits on T1 it would be 1 procedural for extra hit on target, but the shooter made up a Mike. The procedural for not following the WSB was wrongly given. The RM should have been called. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 If the WSB said only 2 shots, reload, bla bla bla and the shooter fired 3 shots before the reload then there are only two valid Penalties. 1 Extra shot, which was earned when it was fired. Then 1 Extra Hit if there was in fact an extra hit on the target. If no Extra Hit was on the target then only 1 procedural should have been assessed for the Extra Shot. Rule 10.2.2.1 clearly defines that you CAN NOT assess additional penalties for not complying with the stage procedures when associated with the number of shots fired. 10.2.2.1 - Procedural penalties for failure to comply with stage procedures do not apply to the number of shots fired. Penalties for firing insufficient or additional shots are addressed in other rules and must not be penalized under the provisions of 10.2.2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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