ltrain7281 Posted March 22, 2018 Author Share Posted March 22, 2018 11 hours ago, B_RAD said: Loren, I'd suggest a side division to one of your regular matches. I got my start in IDPA but don't really want to shoot anything that resembles it now. I look forward to your matches so I don't want to have to skip one because it's an outlaw match for only 4" guns. Having a side match/division that shoots along side the regular monthly match would be no problem. Also, can you make the bays taller?! Jason, no worries there, I have no intentions of changing our monthly match to an outlaw match. We will always hold a sanctioned USPSA match on our normal weekend as long as I am the MD. What I am thinking though, if there is enough interest on the local level for a division for these sized guns I could come up with a set rules just like I did last year for our outlaw 2 gun matches that we have. What you said about having a side match/division that shoots along side of our regular matches is exactly the same thing I was thinking. I do not want this division to be anything like IDPA. Only thing I would like to see is a division for these shorter barrel guns to compete against like sized guns. Not have to go toe to toe with custom 2011's and heavy steel framed productions guns that have a definite advantage over them. As far as the taller bays... we will be having some more dirt work done sometime soon and I believe that they are supposed square up the berms and put the dirt that has washed off of the sides back up on top of the berms. You will have to tell me the full story as to what you did as I am still confused as to what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtturn Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 I do not want this division to be anything like IDPA. Only thing I would like to see is a division for these shorter barrel guns to compete against like sized guns. Not have to go toe to toe with custom 2011's and heavy steel framed productions guns that have a definite advantage over them. You just described IDPA's CCP division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuckinMS Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Way to big of a head ache. I personally carry a double stack Springfield Armory 3.8 compact in .45 acp. My tricked out xd mags that hold 18 of those beer kegs will fit in that same gun. That being said, we would have to have a major & minor scoring, mag length rules, etc. It would be an expanded version of production or limited 10 and those divisions are enough. I shoot my carry gun in limited or limited 10 about 2 times a year to stretch its legs, so I could see the 5th Sunday getting that special attention, but not uspsa. I do enjoy shooting at your range, and hope to again this June. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3gunDQ Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Hell yes! I have some ideas... Traditional Archery and Modern Archery. Traditional requires homemade long bows and arrows.... All other Archery equipment is in Modern. Why not black powder six gun divions where you have to carry extra cylinders? Ninja Stars? I mean hell, I can get behind ninja stars. Only one hit in ninja star division is scored, but to be scored it must stick in or pass through the cardboard target. Why not rimfire? No seriously here... for kids. How about full auto division where all holes are scored? You could just sit in the start position and do mag dumps into the stage until you (a) run out of ammo or (b) think you hit everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadyscott999 Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 nope nope & nope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltrain7281 Posted March 22, 2018 Author Share Posted March 22, 2018 10 minutes ago, motosapiens said: I think it's a great idea for an extra match when you get 5 weekends in a month and everyone can bring what they *actually carry* out for some fun and practice. I think it's a terrible idea for watering down uspsa with yet another division that will have yet another type of non-carry gamer gun. Motosapiens how would this division water down USPSA? This sport started with only one division in 1977, Open division. Ever since 1977 when the sport was created it has constantly been evolving. It took 16 years after the first open nationals to create Limited division. https://uspsa.org/pages/champions please see link to USPSA national champions page. This gives a good visual of how and when all the current divisions have came about. What I have been asked by several people that shoot our sport is why is it that they have to go head to head with 2011's and Shadow 2's if they want to shoot a more traditional size carry gun? Why isn't there a division for these like sized guns to compete against each other? Personally, I think those are some legitimate questions. To me it looks like these guns were just kind of lumped into Limited and Production division because they didn't really fit the bill anywhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltrain7281 Posted March 22, 2018 Author Share Posted March 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, Shadyscott999 said: nope nope & nope Why not? Why does someone who wants to shoot a compact gun have to compete against someone who wants to shoot a custom 2011 or a really heavy Shadow 2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, ltrain7281 said: Motosapiens how would this division water down USPSA? This sport started with only one division in 1977, Open division. Ever since 1977 when the sport was created it has constantly been evolving. It took 16 years after the first open nationals to create Limited division. https://uspsa.org/pages/champions please see link to USPSA national champions page. This gives a good visual of how and when all the current divisions have came about. What I have been asked by several people that shoot our sport is why is it that they have to go head to head with 2011's and Shadow 2's if they want to shoot a more traditional size carry gun? Why isn't there a division for these like sized guns to compete against each other? Personally, I think those are some legitimate questions. To me it looks like these guns were just kind of lumped into Limited and Production division because they didn't really fit the bill anywhere else. I reject the premise of your question, which includes the assumption that uspsa is somehow obligated to provide a division for every type of gun to compete. I think we already have too many divisions and i would immediately get rid of 2 or 3. The more people are in each individual division the better the competition is and the better the matches are. More divisions means smaller playing fields for each divisions. If I want to race nascar, I don't bring my crappy nissan sentra and whine for a new division so i can be competitive. I suck up and buy a car that is competitive, and learn to drive it. All those skills will translate directly over to my sentra, when I need to *operate*. running it as a separate match OTOH, makes alot of sense. everyone will be shooting carry-ish guns, playing field is large. The same thing should have been done with pcc, and then pcc would be pretty sweet, with some more challenging shots. Edited March 22, 2018 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltrain7281 Posted March 22, 2018 Author Share Posted March 22, 2018 22 minutes ago, wtturn said: You just described IDPA's CCP division. Don't you have to wear a vest or some other type of concealment clothing to cover your gun in IDPA? What I am asking is the same type of holsters, mag pouches and belts that we normally use in USPSA. But a division where the compact guns like Glock 19's and CZ P10C's compete against each other and not custom 2011's or Shadow 2's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3gunDQ Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 24 minutes ago, Shadyscott999 said: nope nope & nope Come on scott... you honestly do not wanna throw ninja stars? Come on man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edison Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) 37 minutes ago, ltrain7281 said: Don't you have to wear a vest or some other type of concealment clothing to cover your gun in IDPA? What I am asking is the same type of holsters, mag pouches and belts that we normally use in USPSA. But a division where the compact guns like Glock 19's and CZ P10C's compete against each other and not custom 2011's or Shadow 2's. Will there be a weight limit? Here's the breakdown from my local IDPA club. Out of 62 shooters, only 1 shot the 4.1 inch division. I've read that people didn't like the constant rule changes so maybe that's why no one shoots it in IDPA. But there's a place for 4 inch guns & no one shoots it right now. How do people do 4 mag changes a stage without pinching the bottom of their hand on a glock19? Edited March 22, 2018 by edison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltrain7281 Posted March 22, 2018 Author Share Posted March 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, motosapiens said: I reject the premise of your question, which includes the assumption that uspsa is somehow obligated to provide a division for every type of gun to compete. I think we already have too many divisions and i would immediately get rid of 2 or 3. The more people are in each individual division the better the competition is and the better the matches are. More divisions means smaller playing fields for each divisions. If I want to race nascar, I don't bring my crappy nissan sentra and whine for a new division so i can be competitive. I suck up and buy a car that is competitive, and learn to drive it. All those skills will translate directly over to my sentra, when I need to *operate*. motosapiens your missing my point, I am not whining because I do not have a division to compete in. As stated in an earlier post, I compete in Production division which believe it or not was an idea just like what I am pitching to everyone now. What I am asking is do you think that Glock 19 and STI 2011 are equal and deserve to be pitted against each other at matches? People like shooting the guns that they like, plain and simple. There is not a division where the compact guns are on an equal playing field with each other. Here is a common scenario I see very often on the local level as an MD. New guy shows up to a match with his new Glock 19 or similar gun. He or she has never shot a match before and is asking what division should that they should shoot. I try to ask the normal questions like are you a pretty decent shot with a pistol have you ever shot while being timed etc. etc. You know, just trying to get a feel of how new they really are. At our match it is not uncommon for us to have several 32 round all steel stages. So I will typically tell the new shooter to load their mags full and shoot Limited minor. We start the match and they get to their squad and they see all these really sweet 2011's, and Tangfolio's and all the other cool toys that us shooters have. The next question I typically get asked is "Am I competing against that 2011?" Then I have to tell them that yes you are shooting against that sweet 2011. Then once they find out the price of that 2011 they have sticker shock that in order for them to be competitive in this division they are going to have to spend X amount of dollars. I always try to convince them that to not worry about what everyone else is shooting or doing, just focus on getting better with the gun you have. If later on down the road you want to dive in deeper in this sport then go all out and get the custom 2011, Open gun or whatever else you want to shoot (Except PCC, I hate this division, but that's a story for another time). A lot of times I never see this person at a match again. Other times they do exactly what you said, they suck it up and buy a car (gun in this case) a shoot in this division. Your comment "The more people are in each individual division the better the competition is and the better the matches are." I'm sorry but completely disagree with this statement. Just because people are forced into a couple of divisions does not make for better competition. I hate to burst you bumble on this but if you are not in the top 10 overall in whatever division you are competing in, you are just there to help fund the match. Or as I like to say "Your money in the pot". Or at least that is how I have always looked at. High Master, High A class, High B class etc. etc. All money in the pot. Your competition is at the top, those that are fighting for the number 1 spot. That is where the competition is. When I go to bigger matches I know that I am "Money in the pot" but I go to see if I have closed the gap any between the top competitors in my division and myself. I don't mean for any of this to come across as offensive or in any way derogatory. But as an MD I have been asked by several different people about this type of division and I have seen the scenario that I stated above happen many times. When I was first asked about it I had basically the same reaction as most everyone on here has had. Man up and just shoot Production or Limited was my first initial thought. But after I thought about it for a few days I saw their side or way of thinking. One guy put it this way, USPSA already has Open division why was there a need to create Carry Optics? He makes a good point, I don't have answer for that. All I am asking is that people think a little outside the box. Every division we currently have, started with someone and a gun that did not quite fit in the current divisions that were available at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltrain7281 Posted March 22, 2018 Author Share Posted March 22, 2018 50 minutes ago, edison said: Will there be a weight limit? Here's the breakdown from my local IDPA club. Out of 62 shooters, only 1 shot the 4.1 inch division. I've read that people didn't like the constant rule changes so maybe that's why no one shoots it in IDPA. But there's a place for 4 inch guns & no one shoots it right now. How do people do 4 mag changes a stage without pinching the bottom of their hand on a glock19? I have no idea what IDPA is doing and what their divisions are. I have heard a lot of complaints just like what you have mentioned about rule changes and such. As far as a weight limit on this division in USPSA, I have no problems with one. We currently have weight limits in at least two divisions, Prod and SS and those do not seem to be a problem. As far as your statement regarding pinching the bottom of their hand on a Glock 19, allow aftermarket magwells. USPSA is our sport we can make the divisions how ever we like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HI5-O Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Instead of a new division, what if you do a special category for compact/carry in Production? Like how there is senior; super senior; LE etc... Since you are the MD I think it can be done for club matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltrain7281 Posted March 22, 2018 Author Share Posted March 22, 2018 2 hours ago, HI5-O said: Instead of a new division, what if you do a special category for compact/carry in Production? Like how there is senior; super senior; LE etc... Since you are the MD I think it can be done for club matches. HI5-O, that's a very good idea, thank you. This is exactly the type of ideas and suggestions I was hoping for when I created this post. When I typically set up a match in Practiscore I select the default categories. So I would bet that I could make a custom or special category like you suggested for people to sign up in. I will check this out next month when I set up our monthly match. Thanks again for the suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jollymon32 Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Universal Shooting Academy in Frostproof Florida has DPL match each month which is geared towards defensive carry pistols. Not sure on the number of shooters that show up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B_RAD Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 10 hours ago, ltrain7281 said: You will have to tell me the full story as to what you did as I am still confused as to what happened. It was all me. Just joking about the berms. If they were 5' taller that might have saved me from my poor re-griping of the gun and early trigger pull after a reload but it was 100% on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATLDave Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 3 hours ago, ltrain7281 said: HI5-O, that's a very good idea, thank you. This is exactly the type of ideas and suggestions I was hoping for when I created this post. Here's another approach that is 100% compatible with the existing rule set: Announce that an upcoming match will be "carry gun friendly." Figure out what kind of shooting people are most disadvantaged on by using a smaller gun, and then don't build stages that feature that. We do that sometimes at the small indoor match that we run, and try to make the stages compatible with carry gear. That means that we build stages that don't have 30 required rounds. We generally have 6 or fewer shots required from any position or view. For people who don't want to draw on the clock from their carry gear, we offer optional table/barrel starts (all shooters get the same choice, so it's equitable). We don't set up 20 yard partials. Some people take the opportunity to use their carry guns. Some people just use their regular gamer gear. The latter still have advantages, but they're no longer as big. More importantly to the shooting experience, the guys using carry guns are no longer worried about being simply unable to put out a respectable performance. They know who else was shooting a carry gun, and they can keep track themselves of how they did relative to each other. All of this is compatible with the existing rules. No new divisions or categories or anything. It works fine. It won't help people who only want to shot a Glock 26 full-time, but for everyone who wants to sometimes shoot a carry gun, or who is running a carry gun until they can figure out their gamer rig, it can be fun. And you can do it right now, without a rule change, without a separate match under different rules, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) There is a local club that has their annual Revolver friendly match in November of every year. It's still a full USPSA match, but they dumb the stages down for the revolvers. Do you know what happens that month? I don't go. If you want to shoot your G26 or G19, do it, and leave the rest of us alone. Edited March 22, 2018 by waktasz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 7 hours ago, HI5-O said: Instead of a new division, what if you do a special category for compact/carry in Production? Like how there is senior; super senior; LE etc... Since you are the MD I think it can be done for club matches. This I can get behind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 11 hours ago, ltrain7281 said: What I am asking is do you think that Glock 19 and STI 2011 are equal and deserve to be pitted against each other at matches? i don't care if they are equal. if you want to shoot a gun that is not competitive, suck it up. if you want to be competitive, shoot a competitive gun, don't water down the competition to include the gun you feel like shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Tell them to buy a PCC so they can win HOA with a gun that cost less than a grand. If there is a sling on it, it could even be their carry PCC. No need for thousands of dollars worth of pistols, if competitiveness is the goal PCC is the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremiahD Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 keep splitting up divisions and you will find the field in each is going to end up being really shallow. Leave carry guns in IDPA. they have no value in USPSA, and the folks you are seeing shooting them are either trying the sport (in which case they will move on to something more competitive) or they are brushing up on their move-and-shoot skills for "real life" , in which case they dont care if they come in last in Production (and would be better served in IDPA anyway). NO ONE is going to run out and buy a new compact gun for competition to join a new division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadyscott999 Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) If you have the disposable income to shoot this sport in any capacity, you have enough money to buy a Glock 34 or 35. Get the right tool for the job. Don't try to modify the job for your tool. Edited March 22, 2018 by Shadyscott999 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darqusoull13 Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 If you want to add a division you need to remove one. Which division dies? I'd also be happy to see class and category trophies go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now