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New USPSA Division Proposal


ltrain7281

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I would like to get some opinions on a new proposed division in USPSA geared more towards actual compact sized carry guns. The size guns I am talking about would be double stack guns that have a 4" or shorter barrel, examples would be Glock 19, M&P Compact, Walther PPQ 4", CZ P10C just to name a few. The reason I bring this up is that the most popular pistols that are bought and sold in the U.S. are these compact double stacked sized guns. I talked to several of the popular pistol manufactures to try and get some numbers for comparison, what several of them told me was that they sell anywhere from 5 to 8 of the compact models to every 1 of the longer/competition sized pistols. Now, I know what a lot of people will say that these guns are already legal to compete in several of the current USPSA divisions like Limited and Production etc. BUT, how often do you see people using these shorter barrel guns at matches??? As a local MD here in Arkansas I can tell you that I rarely see more than 1 or 2 shooters per match that bring their compact pistols out to compete, typically it is 1 or none. Most people that shoot on a regular basis are going to be using one of the longer competition sized guns like a G34, Q5 Match, or Shadow 2 etc. There is a big advantage with the longer heavier competition sized guns over the compacts and most people who are serious and compete in Production or Limited are not going to handicap themselves by using a smaller gun.  

 

What I would like to get from this post is feedback on whether or not you all think this division would be worth adding or not? We currently have many divisions that are geared towards certain styles of pistols like Open is geared towards the full on race 2011's. Limited is geared towards the high end 2011's and newly crowned G24, (Also worth mentioning is L10). Single Stack and Revolver, I don't think these need any explaining as to what they are geared towards. Production... This division is kinda all over the place, I would say the steel framed guns have become the majority of what you are going to see at bigger matches but at local matches it tends to be a very wide array of different type pistols. Carry Optics is no where near "CARRY" since it is full sized guns with 140mm mags. Let's just rename this division to "GHETTO OPEN" and move on. PCC division, here is a great division that does nothing to better a persons ability to shoot or manipulate a pistol but has brought a lot of growth to the sport and a lot of innovation in pistol cartridge AR variant style rifle/carbines. With all these divisions that we currently have, there is really no good place for the number 1 sized pistols to play and compete on a level playing field.  

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There are already at least two too many divisions in USPSA. Please, no more!

Why not let them live in IDPA land where they would be just fine? Our USPSA stages are too big for them in my opinion. The reason we only see the few odd ball small carry guns at matches is because they are running what they have until they can get a better gun for the game. Or they just want to hone their defensive shooting skills with their carry gun. Again, that's exactly what IDPA is geared for.

Edited by Sarge
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Sarge I am not talking about small single stack sized carry guns, I am talking about double stacked carry guns. Our stages are limited to 32 rounds which is well with in the magazine capacity of the double stacked guns that I am talking about. I don't compete in IDPA so I have no idea what divisions they have. When you say that "Our USPSA stages are too big for them" it doesn't make a lot of sense. We have 4 divisions currently where you are limited on your magazine/cylinder capacity, (Revolver, Production, Single Stack, L10) all of these divisions have no issue getting through a 32 round field course. Our sport is a GAME plain and simple why not have a division for the most popular sized pistols to play is the question? I mean why on earth would we create a division for PCC and not the most popular sized pistols sold in a sport that was created to make a person a better pistol shooter? 

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4 minutes ago, ltrain7281 said:

 I mean why on earth would we create a division for PCC ? 

I have no friggin' clue!

 

I know what guns you are talking about. There is no way I would shoot my G19 in a USPSA match after shooting a G34, let alone my Open gun. Then again, I wouldn't want to shoot a single stack or revolver either. I get that those guns have a small following who love hard work and lots of reloads, but the bulk of the shooters in the game gravitate more towards higher capacity divisions. Production is where the guns you are talking about fit already. 10 round limit, most targets are within acceptable range for short barrels sounds like a good fit.

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Because the only difference between production and that division would be shortening the barrel length.

 

Bottom Line: USPSA is a game, if you want to be super competitive, you are likely not going to use exactly what you carry.  There is no way to create a division that adequately confines the equipment to only carry-like guns because that field is ever-changing.  Anyone who likes firearms a lot is going to modify their firearms, so the division needs to have some leniency there, so now, once again, we are just talking about production with 4" barrels.

 

By the way, I have used my home defense/winter carry gun as my carry optics gun before, which is a 4.25" M&P Core with extended magazines. 

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I don't think that this would be a good division.  However, I would love it if someone would have  a match geared towards carry guns.  Not IDPA either.  Maybe drop the stage round count to 24 or so, and shoot what you got out of the car wearing, as in your actual carry gun.  I know some people would game it, but  it would be cool to shoot and see where the line between carry ability and shoot ability meshes.  And let people shoot 380s and ankle draw if that is how they carry. 

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whats wrong with just shooting in production? I have shot my G19 many times in production and its fine. I don't expect to win anything just trigger time with the carry gun. most people that shoots compact guns are only doing it for fun. 

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8 hours ago, ltrain7281 said:

 I mean why on earth would we create a division for PCC and not the most popular sized pistols sold in a sport that was created to make a person a better pistol shooter? 

Remember USPSA is a sport.  PCC is the fastest growing division because it's fun to shoot.  Compact pistols are not fun to shoot in USPSA.  Compact pistols have a home and a division to shoot in IDPA land called BUG. 

If you created a poll and asked the question, I bet not many USPSA shooters would want a compact division.  

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3 minutes ago, SDL said:

Could you run a full size pistol in this class?... or do all the ROs have to have a ruler to measure the barrel as part of the make ready command to insure that its short enough?

 

No, this would be for compacts only. RO's wouldn't be carrying around rulers either. USPSA would have to create an approved handgun list just like they have for Production division. 

 

As Agent #1911 stated in his post is that these guns are already approved in Production division but you hardly ever see anyone shooting these compact guns. Why is that? As a local MD I have asked many people when I see them competing with their compact guns why they don't shoot it more. They always give me answer something like "I know I can't be as competitive in Production or Limited as someone shooting a much larger and heavier gun". 

 

I have heard several people say that we have too many divisions already. I don't fully understand this comment, what does it hurt to have a division for every style of pistol to compete? As I said above and I am not hating on PCC but we created a division for them to compete in but we don't have a division for the most popular guns sold in the U.S.?

 

I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here everyone, what I am interested in is why do we not have a division for these guns to compete in? 

 

Just to give you guys some background on myself as I typically do not make a lot of post. My name Loren Pendergrass, I am the MD of Practical Pistol/USPSA at Old Fort Gun Club in Fort Smith, AR. I am Master class Production shooter and part of team Walther. The reason I state all this is I do not want this to be a turd throwing thread but a thread where we can actually have a good conversation about a division I personally feel is very long overdue in our sport. 

 

If you are not a MD or someone who is putting on matches regularly then you probably do not get asked this very often or ever. But here is the question I get asked all the time by new people wanting to get into our sport. They typically send me an email or PM through messenger when they hear that we are going to have our monthly match. They will say something like " Hello my name is ***, I have never shot USPSA before but I just bought a Glock 19 and would really like to come out and shoot. Can I come out and shoot this match with this gun? I will email them back and tell them Yes, you can shoot your Glock 19 or what ever other gun they have in typically Limited, Production, or L10 divisions. I tell the minimum amount of equipment that they need to have and if they do not have it to let me know as I have a lot of extra gear that I can let them borrow. At our match we typically run a lot of steel so I try to persuade them to shoot Limited minor if at all possible. But after the match they almost always come up to me and say how great of time they had and how much of an adrenaline rush our sport is. But then they typically ask or say something to the affect of you know I am/was the only person I saw shooting XX model compact gun today. Why is that? Then I tell them that USPSA is a sport and that most people are out here to compete and that the compacts are not going to be as competitive as a 40+ ounce Shadow 2.

 

So why do we not have a division for these guns? We have divisions for everything else? 

 

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No just no. It’s a game. Shoot your 19 in production or limited minor.  Put a dot on it and shoot it in carry optics. Get crazy and compensate it and shoot it in open The don’t leave any one out scenario is really tired. 

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I am going to restate that as an RO I now have to learn the production guns that are also compact and be able to tell if someone is trying to get a double stack pistol that's 4.1" in the new compact class. All the compact guns are also approved for production. If someones barrel is found to be long are they moved to open class? 

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3 hours ago, SCTaylor said:

No, for the love of everything, no. Go shoot IDPA.

 

Or do what I did. Sack up, and shoot the gun you want to shoot in an existing division in USPSA.

 

Last weekend I shot a Walther PPS (an 8rd singlestack just like a S&W Shield)  from appendix carry concealed. Five mags on my hip and a gun under a T-shirt.

 

 I didn’t complain that we need an “appendix carry SS minor” division. I shot what I carry, and had a blast doing it, and sucked it up in Limited Minor due to the holster’s position.

 

 I have video of this hair-brained adventure I’ll slap on youtube. Eventually.

 

Shooting your carry gun is fun. But some guys carry a G34 IWB or a fullsize 1911. Some of us carry subcompact 9’s. Making a “carry gun” division is a horrible idea given that much diversity. Let them play in SS or Production or Limited Minor where they currently fit - not that many guys are dying to have the disadvantage of the smaller gun. Trust me.

 

Edited by MemphisMechanic
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I had shot USPSA for a while, but when Production was opened I joyfully jumped in with my CCW HK P7 M13s.  Other shooters thought I was crazy to shoot a 4 inch barrel. Even poppers were never set right for a 9mm. Happily  stayed with it until parts became an issue. The past 3 years I've been shooting  Glock 19s. I can't believe that anyone thinks the extra inch on the front end of a gun is the difference between good and great. The bullets still go where the shooter aims. There are 50 things to do to run a good COF and the the length of a barrel just isn't one of the big concerns.

PS: Glocks are ugly and class less guns. I do miss the P7s and my Colt CCOs. :-)

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6 hours ago, ltrain7281 said:

 

As Agent #1911 stated in his post is that these guns are already approved in Production division but you hardly ever see anyone shooting these compact guns. Why is that?

 

 

because most people find it more fun to shoot a more capable gun. I don't know how it is in other free states, but here in idaho production is one of the smallest divisions. CO has already watered down production and open to the point that they have less than half the participation of limited.

 

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3 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

Or do what I did. Sack up, and shoot the gun you want to shoot in an existing division in USPSA.

 

Last weekend I shot a Walther PPS (an 8rd singlestack just like a S&W Shield)  from appendix carry concealed. Five mags on my hip and a gun under a T-shirt.

 

 I didn’t complain that we need an “appendix carry SS minor” division. I shot what I carry, and had a blast doing it, and sucked it up in Limited Minor due to the holster’s position.

 

 I have video of this hair-brained adventure I’ll slap on youtube. Eventually.

 

Shooting your carry gun is fun. But some guys carry a G34 IWB or a fullsize 1911. Some of us carry subcompact 9’s. Making a “carry gun” division is a horrible idea given that much diversity. Let them play in SS or Production or Limited Minor where they currently fit - not that many guys are dying to have the disadvantage of the smaller gun. Trust me.

 

 

Yeah, I complete agree with you. You didn't expect to win, just wanted to go have some fun.

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OP, what would be the point of this new division?  Is it to bring in new shooters?  Or is it to give people who really, really want to shoot their actual carry guns but also really, really want to win their division a place to play?  What about a 5-shot J-frame revolver division?  Lots of people carry those.

 

Will the carry method have to be the same?  Is anyone carrying a G19 in a dropped, offset holster with 5 bullet-out magazines on a velcro double-layer belt?  What is served by creating a division that lets people compete with what you suppose to be their likely "carry gun," but not protect "carry gear" from competition by gamer belts and hoslters and stuff.  Also, doesn't IDPA already kinda do what you're suggesting?  

 

I think the fact that our game reveals certain guns to be non-competitive is actually one of the points of the game.  The fact that few, if any, serious shooters use the Glock 19's in competition (despite many competitors owning such a gun and being familiar with it) is a useful data point in answering the question about whether it really does give away something in performance to larger guns.  

 

FWIW, I'm an MD and get some of the same questions you do.  It doesn't bother me to answer them

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They already have divisions in USPSA for them... I have shot my Glock 19 in USPSA, personally I choose Limited Minor, but many others choose Production.  I guess you could shoot Open if you have really modified your Glock.  

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