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ltrain7281

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About ltrain7281

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    Loren Pendergrass

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  1. Waktasz, I shot Area 8 last and squaded with a couple of people from your area and they all said the same thing about local matches selling out. This was very new and eye opening to me as we do not have that issue in our part of the country. A big local match for us in the Arkansas/Oklahoma area is 40 to 50 shooters. Most matches in our area probably have 40 or less on average though. I have also seen a few clubs fold because they couldn't get enough participation at their matches due to conflicting schedules with other clubs in their area and not enough shooters to support both. You guys must have a highly shooter dense area, I wish we had more of your problem down here but unfortunately we do not. I know you said that you do not need any new shooters, and this may be true for your area but we do need the new shooters in our area.
  2. RJH, I never meant for this to be a new guy division. My original intent for the thread was to get ideas and suggestions geared strictly towards a compact gun division. Hell, as far I'm aware there isn't a whole lot we can do to help a new person place higher at their first match. They are going to have to start at the bottom just like the rest of us and work their way up. I would be willing to bet that 99.9% of all of us started on the bottom and got sh!t kicked out us every month until we started seriously dry firing and live firing on a consistent basis. In the 6 years that I have been part of this sport I yet to see anyone run before crawled. As far guys wanting a participation trophy I can't say with 100% certainly that wasn't their intent but if I had to guess I would say that it was not their intent. All the guys that brought that were talking about this are classified in several different divisions and have the guns and gear for each division. They all enjoy shooting a wide array of guns and divisions and a couple of them were GM's and M class shooters in their main division. Their main thought was that it seemed dumb that the compacts were just lumped into Limited and Production division to compete with guns that were much heavier and easier to shoot. After thinking about it for a while I thought they had a valid point so thought I would post it on here to get some more opinions. Little did I know I would beat with a stick like a dead horse, LOL
  3. No sir, I have never tried shooting revolver. Semi's are tough enough for me... As PCC I really don't have a big problem with it as it has brought a lot of growth to the sport at least in our area. I have also seen a lot of older shooters come back to the sport because PCC is easier on them. My only real issue with the PCC is that I have seen many B,C,& D class pistol shooters basically quit shooting pistols and start shooting PCC so that they can move up in the overall results.
  4. I on board with the 3000 signatures for any new divisions, as that actually seems like a good idea. Because if that was the case I probably wouldn't have to write up a separate stage briefing/start position for pistols and PCC every month. I would have thought revolver division had a better chance of making a come back as opposed to PCC catching on like it has...
  5. Then why was I asked about it by members who would like to see it? If you are not interested in the division then why even comment? Go troll somewhere else...
  6. Foxj66, I see your point in what you are saying and probably just like you I have many guns in the safe that were bought with only one purpose... competing in USPSA. As far as only three divisions at level 2 and above, I doubt that will ever happen in my opinion. Too much money would be lost by eliminating the other divisions.
  7. Balakay- You are right about it's the Indian not the arrow. But your comparison of your Stock 2 and Stock 3 are not what I am talking about. What I said was that a compact gun like a Glock 19 is at big disadvantage compared to a 2011 or a heavier Shadow 2 or in your case a Stock 2 or 3. As far as the carry gear you mentioned, I have no idea where you came up with this. I have not said anything about competing with carry gear. If a division like what I am proposing was to start up, I would like to see the exact same gear be used that is legal in Production or SS divisions. As far as saving money up to but G34 that is not what this is about. All of the individuals that asked me about why there wasn't a division for compacts already has G34', Q5's,2011's, and Open guns. They already compete in all of our normal divisions several of them are very good shooters, one of them is a GM in his respected division. I have no idea if you have read this entire thread or not but here is how this all came about. We hosted our yearly revolver friendly match last month and several of our normal shooters that typically compete in Production, Limited, and Open showed up and decided to use their carry guns, (compacts, I believe they were all using G19's, ). We all got to talking about carry guns and compacts and the conversation got brought up as to why the compact guns were lumped into the same divisions as Production and Limited. That got me to thinking about a division just for compacts were these sized guns could compete against each other and not against 2011's and longer heavier Production guns that are the most common. As far as validating my idea that was not my intention with the OP. I didn't really state this in the OP but what I am really looking for is suggestions on what people would like to see in a division like this. Example: What types of holsters, DOH like Production uses or heel above belt like SS uses. How many rounds allowed in mags: 10+1 like Production or let them fill their stock mags to full capacity? These are just a few quick questions that I have had and would like to hear everyone else's opinions on what they think would make the division the most successful? Also, worth noting is that our sport is in my opinion is like drag racing we are about speed and accuracy. I have no intentions or desires to see anything created like IDPA. Let the division use the same equipment that all our other divisions use. The only difference would be now instead of someone shooting a G19 against a custom 2011 they are now competing against a M&P Compact.
  8. Exactly! Let the gun companies go crazy and create new products for our sport. In my opinion the easiest way to keep unapproved guns out of this divisions is to create a an "Approved Gun List" just like Production division. If the gun isn't on the list then it will shoot in one of the other divisions. I would also suggest having a "Box" that the guns must fit in just like Production at level 2 matches and above. We could also put a weight limit on this division or it could be a weight limit on the individual guns like Production has.
  9. Moto and RJH, I'm interested in what story you guys have heard about how Carry Optics got started. The story I heard was not about anyone person but about a company... Please share.
  10. The comments are coming from a few people who are afraid of change. These same people don't understand or don't care that the division that they currently shoot in got implemented because someone said that their gun did not fit the current divisions of the time. If the BOD from years ago who helped start this sport had stuck their head in the sand and said that Open division was all we needed we wouldn't have all the great divisions we currently have. Whether a person likes the newer divisions or not is irrelevant, with these new divisions I have seen more brand new shooters and out and compete and I have also seen older shooters who had quit shooting because they couldn't see the sights or couldn't hold pistol steady anymore buy a PCC and get back in the game. They are not out here shooting and having a good time and that is what the sport is about. When USPSA announced PCC division I thought that was the stupidest idea I had ever heard of. My initial thought was "who in the world is going to want to bring a rifle to a pistol match... DUMB". Man was I wrong! We get new shooters just about every month coming out for their first time that are shooting PCC. That is great growth that our sport needs whether you like a division or not there will always be someone that enjoys shooting that type of gun and just wants place to compete against like minded individuals shooting the same equipment. That is how and why all other divisions got created. There are a lot of divisions in our sport for people to compete in and that is great in my opinion. If there is a way that we can grow and bring in new shooters or keep people from getting burned out and keep them competing and being active members, I AM ALL FOR IT. A new division created for the compact sized guns does not affect me in Production division. It not affect someone shooting in Limited Division. It does not affect anyone shooting in another division. I heard over and over again from the same keyboard commandos that it will water down are sport. If that is the case then we need to get rid of every division we currently have except for Open. Since I like shooting shooting Production style guns that would mean I would be showing up to matches and be in the same division as the guy beside me shooting his full blown Open gun. Am I at a dis-advantage? Yep! Do I care not really nope, know why because I'm a competitor first and I like shooting Production style guns. The few people that asked me about this new division all compete in Production and Limited divisions with guns built for those divisions on a regular basis. They were curious as to why the compact style guns were grouped in divisions that they are not competitive in? When asked that, I had to take a step back and really think about what they had just said/asked. That is very valid question? And one I still do not have an answer for. Do you?
  11. jeremiahD you may want to go back and read all my post from the beginning because you are completely missing my point on this topic. I don't send people to Limited or Production. I tell them the equipment rules when they ask me what division they need to shoot in and let them make up their own mind. As far as competing against the clock and themselves. This is a valid point but it is irrelevant in this discussion and few people will listen to this type of reasoning. The people that have asked me about this new division are not new shooters they have been shooting for several years and several of them are really good shooters. Several of them are law enforcement and they like using what they carry everyday. I am NOT suggesting we create a division for the new guy to come try out his new carry gear, your out in left field on this one... What I was asked is why are the compact guns in a division where they are a significant disadvantage to 2011's and high end Production guns? If you will do a little research on USPSA's website you will see that our sport started with just ONE DIVISION... OPEN, every division outside of Open has been added over the years due to the demand of shooters that want a division to shoot the guns that they like but the gun does not fit in one of the current divisions. Look at Carry Optics for an example. Carry Optics whether you like this division of not is irrelevant. Carry Optics was created simply because there people who wanted to shoot these style of guns with red dots but did not want to compete against true Open guns. This is the same situation just a smaller gun.
  12. I like your idea with the 3 divisions but I don't see the BOD thinning the herd down unless maybe they get rid of L10. L10 is the only division that I very rarely ever hear anyone say that they shoot. If a 3 division rule was put in place the BOD would still have to create sub-divisions or categories for the other style guns. People that enjoy shooting SS or revolver would be at a huge disadvantage in the 3 divisions you listed. And as much as I hate to say this... which division does PCC shoot in? The fact of the matter is, if we only have 3 divisions the shooters who do not have a division for their gun will more than likely leave. That is when we will see the "Watering Down" affect that several people have mentioned. I doubt most people will have the mindset that if USPSA got rid of the division they like competing in they would suck it up try to beat everyone in a division with a gun that is not competitive. They will more than likely go to a sport that has a division that is suited for their equipment.
  13. But see... this is the beauty of our sport. We create a division and let people and the gun companies do their thing. Very soon you will have newer better guns will more than likely grow your sport. There really shouldn't be any reason we have to confine people to certain guns in certain divisions. A lot of the innovations that we have today stem from it's birth in competition. I get what you are saying about yourself. You are more interested in the overall competition and flat out competing more than you are concerned about the equipment. At least that is what I think you are getting at. There are a lot of people that think just like you and that is a true competitors mindset and a great attribute to have. But forcing people to compete in only a few divisions is a really good way to lose a lot of members and the last thing that our community needs is to run off members. If you create divisions that people are truly interested in shooting then those people will hopefully be more inclined to practice and get better. If they are forced to compete in a division that they don't really enjoy, they will probably lose interest and eventually quit. But if they are getting to use the gun that they like and competing in the division they like and they get better look for them to start moving up in the overall results.
  14. I'm really having a hard time following what you are saying about or XD45 and everything. Why would you be at anymore of a disadvantage with your 45 in a sub-category than you already are now? The cool aid you are talking about is what you are already drinking. This sport started in 1977 with one division OPEN. Many years later people that shot iron sights were tired of getting their butts kicked by Open guns so they created Limited for these individuals to compete in. Several years later they add SS and revolver, the Production. Basically what I am saying is that the division you are shooting in now got started with the same idea I am preaching. We have people interested in a new division. Their guns really do not fit into the divisions that they are currently in...
  15. Both of the divisions that you compete in were added many years later after IPSC and USPSA started. The reason they were add? Because people wanted to shoot these guns in a match and not be in the same division as Open. So they got the rules changed.The few people that have asked me about this are just normal people that prefer to shoot a certain sized gun. They may or may not have any desire to own a 2011 or SS. I don't know what they think but I after I thought about what they asked me it made sense. Why is a compact gun pitted against 2011's and all the popular Production guns? Everyone seems to want to bash someone else's division when we are actually all shooting the same sport the same stages and same matches. You stated in your post about 10 people whining about shooting Carry Optics. I'm not a big fan of Carry Optics as I don't like using dots but I have also saw several people come back to this sport and start shooting USPSA again because of Carry Optics. I have had several older people who could no longer focus on iron sights and did not want to spend the money to get into the Open game come back and start shooting in Carry Optics division. I have also seen the same thing with PCC I hate this division. But the fact is that it has attracted a lot of new shooters and it like Carry Optics has helped some of the older shooters get back in the game. I hate to say this but it seems like a large majority of the people on this forum have on blinders only for a their division or a few other divisions. I keep hearing the words "WATERING DOWN"? This makes absolutely no sense. It that was the case then why would the BOD voted all these divisions in over the years? And I am not just talking about the last few years, I am talking about since the inception of USPSA back in 1984. The reason they voted them in is probably because people want a place to compete with these guns within our rule set. (NOT IDPA's RULE SET). I am sure there are people out there that will jump from division to get a trophy like what you said, AKA Sandbaggers. They are in every sport where there are classifications that separate the competitors. There will always be people for whatever reason that want a dumb plaque or trophy to hang on their wall and they are willing to sandbag or cheat to get it. Adding a division will not "Water Down" anything. I am having a hard time where you understanding where you are coming from with this term "Watering Down"? Is there someone at your local club that you compete against that you are afraid will change divisions and you will not be able to compete against them? Earlier someone said that we should only be competing against ourselves and the clock... The question that I was asked by several shooters was why do the compact guns get lumped in with Limited and Production guns when they are at a disadvantage in this division?
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