New USPSA Division Proposal

[OdinIII]

How would you keep guns that you don’t approve of out of your new compact class? I’m sure there is a heavy 4” barreled pistol out there somewhere that functions and can accept good sights. It’d be only a matter of time before a Shadow 2 short is born. It is just the nature of the beast!

[B_RAD]

I still don't see the issue with another division. If you don't want to shoot it then don't. If you want to shoot your 4" in limited, then that's fine too. Just like now. It could be done with what I think (I may be wrong) would be little effort. Approved list, plus 4 oz, same mods as prod but I'd let them got to 15 rnds. That help with new shooters too!

 

I don't think it's gonna "water down" anything. Only folks that are really would want to shoot it would be folks truly wanting to compete with their carry gear or folks trying to get a div win.  

 

 

But someone else had a great suggestion. If it's not a separate division, then make it a category of production. Everything else isnthe same just bragging rights for the guys shooting carry guns. 

 

[StuckinMS]

I started USPSA with a Springfield xd in .45acp because that was what i had.  I shot that gun for 2 years knowing that I was at an equipment disadvantage.  I accepted that and I did win my class in limited a few times.  Once I decided to get competitive, I bought a 2011.  I don't like pcc, will never shoot one/own one, and I do love it when I win high overall with my limited against those Hollywood guns, but if you make a sub category of production, then I couldn't use my .45 carry gun without being at a disadvantage again.  I believe what attracts people to shooting sports is the competition, and to be competitive you have to make the decision to buy competitive equipment.  We can't and shouldn't have to have a cool aid for everyone.  That's like telling a football player he can't attend special training camps because he will be better that the water boy, or trying to make an exception for the quarterback that doesn't want to be hit by that weak side linebacker.  If you have enough interest for a lengthy time do your trial, keep up with attendance over 6 months or so and post the results.  

[ltrain7281]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

 

1911 in SS, 2011 in limited. I got them to compete in those divisions. That's how sports work. You figure out what is legal and appropriate, and you get that stuff. You don't get stuff and then try to get the rules changed.

Both of the divisions that you compete in were added many years later after IPSC and USPSA started. The reason they were add? Because people wanted to shoot these guns in a match and not be in the same division as Open. So they got the rules changed.The few people that have asked me about this are just normal people that prefer to shoot a certain sized gun. They may or may not have any desire to own a 2011 or SS. I don't know what they think but I after I thought about what they asked me it made sense. Why is a compact gun pitted against 2011's and all the popular Production guns? Everyone seems to want to bash someone else's division when we are actually all shooting the same sport the same stages and same matches. 

You stated in your post about 10 people whining about shooting Carry Optics. I'm not a big fan of Carry Optics as I don't like using dots but I have also saw several people come back to this sport and start shooting USPSA again because of Carry Optics. I have had several older people who could no longer focus on iron sights and did not want to spend the money to get into the Open game come back and start shooting in Carry Optics division. I have also seen the same thing with PCC I hate this division. But the fact is that it has attracted a lot of new shooters and it like Carry Optics has helped some of the older shooters get back in the game. 

 

I hate to say this but it seems like a large majority of the people on this forum have on blinders only for a their division or a few other divisions. I keep hearing the words "WATERING DOWN"? This makes absolutely no sense. It that was the case then why would the BOD voted all these divisions in over the years? And I am not just talking about the last few years, I am talking about since the inception of USPSA back in 1984. The reason they voted them in is probably because people want a place to compete with these guns within our rule set. (NOT IDPA's RULE SET). I am sure there are people out there that will jump from division to get a trophy like what you said, AKA Sandbaggers. They are in every sport where there are classifications that separate the competitors. There will always be people for whatever reason that want a dumb plaque or trophy to hang on their wall and they are willing to sandbag or cheat to get it. Adding a division will not "Water Down" anything. I am having a hard time where you understanding where you are coming from with this term "Watering Down"? Is there someone at your local club that you compete against that you are afraid will change divisions and you will not be able to compete against them? Earlier someone said that we should only be competing against ourselves and the clock... 

 

The question that I was asked by several shooters was why do the compact guns get lumped in with Limited and Production guns when they are at a disadvantage in this division?   

[ltrain7281]

39 minutes ago, StuckinMS said:

0I started USPSA with a Springfield xd in .45acp because that was what i had.  I shot that gun for 2 years knowing that I was at an equipment disadvantage.  I accepted that and I did win my class in limited a few times.  Once I decided to get competitive, I bought a 2011.  I don't like pcc, will never shoot one/own one, and I do love it when I win high overall with my limited against those Hollywood guns, but if you make a sub category of production, then I couldn't use my .45 carry gun without being at a disadvantage again.  I believe what attracts people to shooting sports is the competition, and to be competitive you have to make the decision to buy competitive equipment.  We can't and shouldn't have to have a cool aid for everyone.  That's like telling a football player he can't attend special training camps because he will be better that the water boy, or trying to make an exception for the quarterback that doesn't want to be hit by that weak side linebacker.  If you have enough interest for a lengthy time do your trial, keep up with attendance over 6 months or so and post the results.  

I'm really having a hard time following what you are saying about or XD45 and everything. Why would you be at anymore of a disadvantage with your 45 in a sub-category than you already are now? The cool aid you are talking about is what you are already drinking. This sport started in 1977 with one division OPEN. Many years later people that shot iron sights were tired of getting their butts kicked by Open guns so they created Limited for these individuals to compete in. Several years later they add SS and revolver, the Production. Basically what I am saying is that the division you are shooting in now got started with the same idea I am preaching. We have people interested in a new division. Their guns really do not fit into the divisions that they are currently in...

[ltrain7281]

3 hours ago, Foxj66 said:

 

If open was all there was its what I would shoot. I wouldn't ask to make a division my guns fits in. I would buy the equipment I needed to be competitive, guns last a long time and even in open are a relatively small expense compared to ammo and match expenses. 

But see... this is the beauty of our sport. We create a division and let people and the gun companies do their thing. Very soon you will have newer better guns will more than likely grow your sport. There really shouldn't be any reason we have to confine people to certain guns in certain divisions. A lot of the innovations that we have today stem from it's birth in competition. I get what you are saying about yourself. You are more interested in the overall competition and flat out competing more than you are concerned about the equipment. At least that is what I think you are getting at. There are a lot of people that think just like you and that is a true competitors mindset and a great attribute to have. But forcing people to compete in only a few divisions is a really good way to lose a lot of members and the last thing that our community needs is to run off members. If you create divisions that people are truly interested in shooting then those people will hopefully be more inclined to practice and get better. If they are forced to compete in a division that they don't really enjoy, they will probably lose interest and eventually quit. But if they are getting to use the gun that they like and competing in the division they like and they get better look for them to start moving up in the overall results.    

[Foxj66]

11 minutes ago, ltrain7281 said:

But see... this is the beauty of our sport. We create a division and let people and the gun companies do their thing. Very soon you will have newer better guns will more than likely grow your sport. There really shouldn't be any reason we have to confine people to certain guns in certain divisions. A lot of the innovations that we have today stem from it's birth in competition. I get what you are saying about yourself. You are more interested in the overall competition and flat out competing more than you are concerned about the equipment. At least that is what I think you are getting at. There are a lot of people that think just like you and that is a true competitors mindset and a great attribute to have. But forcing people to compete in only a few divisions is a really good way to lose a lot of members and the last thing that our community needs is to run off members. If you create divisions that people are truly interested in shooting then those people will hopefully be more inclined to practice and get better. If they are forced to compete in a division that they don't really enjoy, they will probably lose interest and eventually quit. But if they are getting to use the gun that they like and competing in the division they like and they get better look for them to start moving up in the overall results.    

 

 

3 divisions would give plenty of room, Open limited and production are all enough different.

 

As for the equipment side yes I don't care much because it doesn't matter. A newer gun or a steel grip wouldn't have made me 17th at nationals instead of 18th.

 

The only part about equipment that maters is that its reliable and you are comfortable/trust it.

[JeremiahD]

6 hours ago, ltrain7281 said:

The Glock 19 is not a competitive Production pistol against a heavier Shadow or Tangfo. 

 

YES, if you are shooting limited with a Glock 19 you are shooting against the custom 2011. Plain and simple. Don't believe that... Go to a match and shoot your compact gun in Limited. When the match is over go to Practiscore and look at the "Old Style Results" Your name will be in listed in Limited division. I actually get what you said about competing against yourself and the clock but in 6 years I have seen very few people that will actually look at it that way. For whatever reason I tell them the same thing and it goes in one ear and out the other.

 

As far as Bob Vogel, he could beat 99% of all shooters in a match with a bean flip and Crown Royal bag full of rocks...

 

People shoot what they want to shoot plain and simple. But the shooters that have asked me why they don't have a division for compacts have a valid question. I think about it this way, compact guns are made primarily for everyday carry and personnel protection. Your competition guns like Walther Q5 Match, Glock 34, Shadow 2, Tangfo Stock 2's etc. are made for competition. They have a mechanical/weight/sight radius advantage over the smaller lighter compact guns. 

 

Give the compacts their own division and list of rules and mag restrictions (example 10+1 like production) and let them play.  

I never claimed The Glock 19 IS a competitive Production pistol against a heavier Shadow or Tangfo, and I still hold that the shooter is far more important than the gun. Its also irrelevant to your reasoning (new shooters trying the sport with inadequate supporting equipment, capacity, mag carriers, etc). If the shooter is that new, handing him or her a Limcat isnt going to improve their shooting skill or increase the chances they will return to the sport.

 

If folks are shooting G19's in limited at your matches its because you are sending them there. If you insist on doing that, then take note of the next point in my last post: dont tell the poor guy in the honda he's drag racing against the top fuel racer. Tell him he's competing against HIMSELF and the CLOCK which is entirely correct.  

 

USPSA is a go-fast sport.  No one wants to create an accommodation category to fit the guy who wants to try it with his carry gun when he can just as easily fit into an existing Division and try it out with his current carry rig and move up from there when his skills allow.

 

and for the record, this is from a guy who showed up out of the blue with his carry gun to a match last year.  I shot my first 6 months  with a bone-stock commander length 1911, a handfull of stock 7 round mags, an old snap-on galco holster, 3 crappy leather mag pouches on a 5.11 belt. and I ran it against guys who shot  5" 1911's three times the price.  I sucked.   I didnt care because 1.) I was too concerned with my own improvement, and 2.) I fell in with a great club who made it a point to stress "keep it safe, learn, paste targets" rather than " you're competing against that guy who has a super nice rig".  I got a good feel for the sport, moved up to a more competitive gun, bought proper mags and a rig and I still worry more about how well I do against myself than anyone else, try to learn, and paste targets.

 

You have a valid question, which you answered yourself when you said" ... compact guns are made primarily for everyday carry and personnel protection. Your competition guns like Walther Q5 Match, Glock 34, Shadow 2, Tangfo Stock 2's etc. are made for competition..."  USPSA IS A COMPETITION

Edited March 23, 2018 by JeremiahD
cut-paste error

[ltrain7281]

6 hours ago, Foxj66 said:

 

 

3 divisions would give plenty of room, Open limited and production are all enough different.

 

As for the equipment side yes I don't care much because it doesn't matter. A newer gun or a steel grip wouldn't have made me 17th at nationals instead of 18th.

 

The only part about equipment that maters is that its reliable and you are comfortable/trust it.

I like your idea with the 3 divisions but I don't see the BOD thinning the herd down unless maybe they get rid of L10. L10 is the only division that I very rarely ever hear anyone say that they shoot. If a 3 division rule was put in place the BOD would still have to create sub-divisions or categories for the other style guns. People that enjoy shooting SS or revolver would be at a huge disadvantage in the 3 divisions you listed. And as much as I hate to say this... which division does PCC shoot in? The fact of the matter is, if we only have 3 divisions the shooters who do not have a division for their gun will more than likely leave. That is when we will see the "Watering Down" affect that several people have mentioned. I doubt most people will have the mindset that if USPSA got rid of the division they like competing in they would suck it up try to beat everyone in a division with a gun that is not competitive. They will more than likely go to a sport that has a division that is suited for their equipment.   

[ltrain7281]

4 hours ago, JeremiahD said:

I never claimed The Glock 19 IS a competitive Production pistol against a heavier Shadow or Tangfo, and I still hold that the shooter is far more important than the gun. Its also irrelevant to your reasoning (new shooters trying the sport with inadequate supporting equipment, capacity, mag carriers, etc). If the shooter is that new, handing him or her a Limcat isnt going to improve their shooting skill or increase the chances they will return to the sport.

 

If folks are shooting G19's in limited at your matches its because you are sending them there. If you insist on doing that, then take note of the next point in my last post: dont tell the poor guy in the honda he's drag racing against the top fuel racer. Tell him he's competing against HIMSELF and the CLOCK which is entirely correct.  

 

USPSA is a go-fast sport.  No one wants to create an accommodation category to fit the guy who wants to try it with his carry gun when he can just as easily fit into an existing Division and try it out with his current carry rig and move up from there when his skills allow.

 

and for the record, this is from a guy who showed up out of the blue with his carry gun to a match last year.  I shot my first 6 months  with a bone-stock commander length 1911, a handfull of stock 7 round mags, an old snap-on galco holster, 3 crappy leather mag pouches on a 5.11 belt. and I ran it against guys who shot  5" 1911's three times the price.  I sucked.   I didnt care because 1.) I was too concerned with my own improvement, and 2.) I fell in with a great club who made it a point to stress "keep it safe, learn, paste targets" rather than " you're competing against that guy who has a super nice rig".  I got a good feel for the sport, moved up to a more competitive gun, bought proper mags and a rig and I still worry more about how well I do against myself than anyone else, try to learn, and paste targets.

 

You have a valid question, which you answered yourself when you sa id" ... compact guns are made primarily for everyday carry and personnel protection. Your competition guns like Walther Q5 Match, Glock 34, Shadow 2, Tangfo Stock 2's etc. are made for competition..."  USPSA IS A COMPETITION

jeremiahD you may want to go back and read all my post from the beginning because you are completely missing my point on this topic. I don't send people to Limited or Production. I tell them the equipment rules when they ask me what division they need to shoot in and let them make up their own mind. As far as competing against the clock and themselves. This is a valid point but it is irrelevant in this discussion and few people will listen to this type of reasoning. The people that have asked me about this new division are not new shooters they have been shooting for several years and several of them are really good shooters. Several of them are law enforcement and they like using what they carry everyday. I am NOT suggesting we create a division for the new guy to come try out his new carry gear, your out in left field on this one... 

 

What I was asked is why are the compact guns in a division where they are a significant disadvantage to 2011's and high end Production guns? If you will do a little research on USPSA's website you will see that our sport started with just ONE DIVISION... OPEN, every division outside of Open has been added over the years due to the demand of shooters that want a division to shoot the guns that they like but the gun does not fit in one of the current divisions. Look at Carry Optics for an example. Carry Optics whether you like this division of not is irrelevant. Carry Optics was created simply because there people who wanted to shoot these style of guns with red dots but did not want to compete against true Open guns. This is the same situation just a smaller gun.

[TaterHead]

It appears the comments are a resounding 'no'. Perhaps time to let it go.

[ltrain7281]

41 minutes ago, TaterHead said:

It appears the comments are a resounding 'no'. Perhaps time to let it go.

The comments are coming from a few people who are afraid of change. These same people don't understand or don't care that the division that they currently shoot in got implemented because someone said that their gun did not fit the current divisions of the time. If the BOD from years ago who helped start this sport had stuck their head in the sand and said that Open division was all we needed we wouldn't have all the great divisions we currently have. Whether a person likes the newer divisions or not is irrelevant, with these new divisions I have seen more brand new shooters and out and compete and I have also seen older shooters who had quit shooting because they couldn't see the sights or couldn't hold pistol steady anymore buy a PCC and get back in the game. They are not out here shooting and having a good time and that is what the sport is about.

 

When USPSA announced PCC division I thought that was the stupidest idea I had ever heard of. My initial thought was "who in the world is going to want to bring a rifle to a pistol match... DUMB". Man was I wrong! We get new shooters just about every month coming out for their first time that are shooting PCC. That is great growth that our sport needs whether you like a division or not there will always be someone that enjoys shooting that type of gun and just wants place to compete against like minded individuals shooting the same equipment. That is how and why all other divisions got created.

 

There are a lot of divisions in our sport for people to compete in and that is great in my opinion. If there is a way that we can grow and bring in new shooters or keep people from getting burned out and keep them competing and being active members, I AM ALL FOR IT. A new division created for the compact sized guns does not affect me in Production division. It not affect someone shooting in Limited Division. It does not affect anyone shooting in another division. I heard over and over again from the same keyboard commandos that it will water down are sport. If that is the case then we need to get rid of every division we currently have except for Open. Since I like shooting shooting Production style guns that would mean I would be showing up to matches and be in the same division as the guy beside me shooting his full blown Open gun. Am I at a dis-advantage? Yep! Do I care not really nope, know why because I'm a competitor first and I like shooting Production style guns. 

 

The few people that asked me about this new division all compete in Production and Limited divisions with guns built for those divisions on a regular basis. They were curious as to why the compact style guns were grouped in divisions that they are not competitive in? When asked that, I had to take a step back and really think about what they had just said/asked. That is very valid question? And one I still do not have an answer for. Do you?  

[Nathanb]

So offer it at your match as a provisional class. Have them squad together and give them a tablet to score themselves separately. That way they get their results and you don’t have to unscrew the results when you upload. Prove it’s worthwhile and not revolver 2018

[RJH]

Idk, I think you should keep asking for it, that is how carry ops was born. A couple of people  (mainly one guy) just kept talking it up and now it is a real division,  kinda like Pinocchio 

[Sarge]

4 hours ago, RJH said:

Idk, I think you should keep asking for it, that is how carry ops was born. A couple of people  (mainly one guy) just kept talking it up and now it is a real division,  kinda like Pinocchio 

Ain’t that the truth! Same with PCC.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Sarge

[Racinready300ex]

Personally I do worry about watering down the sport with to many divisions/classifications. Also, in some area's new divisions aren't what we need to grow the sport. The biggest complaint I hear from new shooters it "that match takes to long"  20 shooters to a squad means a long day of pasting for very little shooting.

 

For a example the match I'm shooting tomorrow filled up vary fast with 15/squad. No real room to "grow the sport" when local club matches have a wait list. Now, with 100 shooters in that match the biggest segment will be production A and B with 8 shooters in each. If you break it out by division and class we will have 31 shooters who will have won their class in their division.  That's 31% of the shooter get to be "winners"

 

Adding a division wont make room for more "new" shooters. It'll just mean the 100 people that get in get split up into even smaller groups

[waktasz]

You're just mad you won't be getting a trophy because there's not enough M class SS minor 9 shot division shooters there to make you eligible for a prize

Edited March 23, 2018 by waktasz

[Balakay]

 

I frequently read  on this forum that it is the "Indian not the arrow" when comparing guns like Glocks to a heavier CZ.  Now you are trying to tell us that a 4in plastic gun is a major disadvantage.  My Stock 2  is shorter than his Stock 3.  Wah, wah, wah. FML.

 

Your premise of competing with carry gear is ridiculously flawed. No one wears a 2 layer belt with a drop offset holster with 6 mag pouches for concealed carry.

The whole notion of competitive equity sounds like some new age Millennial snowflakery. 

 

Why not have a sub-group of Limited shooters who are forced to shoot factory ammo because they can't or choose not to reload. 

 

If you carry a G19, save like $20 a week and you can buy yourself a shiny new G34 in a few months. 

 

As others have said, If you want to facilitate this change, make it happen, starting at a grass roots level.  Asking the Forum to validate your idea is not going to help your cause.

 

 

[HoMiE]

2 hours ago, waktasz said:

You're just mad you won't be getting a trophy because there's not enough M class SS minor 9 shot division shooters there to make you eligible for a prize

We need a snowflake division, shot whatever you want and everyone gets a prize. ?

[Racinready300ex]

2 hours ago, waktasz said:

You're just mad you won't be getting a trophy because there's not enough M class SS minor 9 shot division shooters there to make you eligible for a prize

 

Truth.  Maybe I'll switch to L-10 I hear that is where the heat is.

[waktasz]

You better win the L-10 title then because there's no trophy for second place 

[Racinready300ex]

9 minutes ago, waktasz said:

You better win the L-10 title then because there's no trophy for second place 

 

Well, I started in Revolver they don't even get a trophy for first place.

[paul788]

Is it the length of the barrel used on a G34 versus the G19 that you don't like?  Or is it that the guys who bought "Game suitable equipment"  and practice enough to win that you don't like?  The guns you list fit into Production already.  I shoot limited and revolver.  I can use a 2" barreled 5 shot J frame or the 6.5" 929 that I use now.  I play within the rules and divisions that currently exist.  So should all these short barrel gun owners. 

 

Paul Beck

Former MD

PCC Hater

[motosapiens]

7 hours ago, RJH said:

Idk, I think you should keep asking for it, that is how carry ops was born. A couple of people  (mainly one guy) just kept talking it up and now it is a real division,  kinda like Pinocchio 

yup, and it succeeded in making both production and open smaller, so now we have 3 divisions with hardly anyone shooting at local matches. Hooray!  (fwiw, i think carry optics will eventually be a popular and interesting division).

[ltrain7281]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

yup, and it succeeded in making both production and open smaller, so now we have 3 divisions with hardly anyone shooting at local matches. Hooray!  (fwiw, i think carry optics will eventually be a popular and interesting division).

Moto and RJH, I'm interested in what story you guys have heard about how Carry Optics got started. The story I heard was not about anyone person but about a company... Please share.