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New USPSA Division Proposal


ltrain7281

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13 minutes ago, ltrain7281 said:

Moto and RJH, I'm interested in what story you guys have heard about how Carry Optics got started. The story I heard was not about anyone person but about a company... Please share.

 

I didn't hear any stories. I participated in the debate right on these pages with paul haviland (sp?), who wanted uspsa to immediately create a new division to fit what he thought was fun and cool and interesting. I said it might be fun and cool and interesting, but why don't you and the other guys who want to do it start by demonstrating the interest, i.e., showing up with carry optics guns and shooting open. As a part-time MD at my local club, I even offered to do an unofficial score breakout for bragging rights or whatever.

 

My logic was that if 1 or 2 clubs do it, and it takes off, it will be hard to ignore. My other logic is the onus is on the people who want the division to do the work to *prove* there is a need.

 

edit: to paul's credit, he and a few other guys did put their money where their mouth was and started shooting co long before it was a provisional division. Also want to make it clear I'm not bashing him at all. He is a great guy who does great things for the sport.

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12 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I didn't hear any stories. I participated in the debate right on these pages with paul haviland (sp?), who wanted uspsa to immediately create a new division to fit what he thought was fun and cool and interesting. I said it might be fun and cool and interesting, but why don't you and the other guys who want to do it start by demonstrating the interest, i.e., showing up with carry optics guns and shooting open. As a part-time MD at my local club, I even offered to do an unofficial score breakout for bragging rights or whatever.

 

My logic was that if 1 or 2 clubs do it, and it takes off, it will be hard to ignore. My other logic is the onus is on the people who want the division to do the work to *prove* there is a need.

 

edit: to paul's credit, he and a few other guys did put their money where their mouth was and started shooting co long before it was a provisional division. Also want to make it clear I'm not bashing him at all. He is a great guy who does great things for the sport.

 

Ditto haha.  Glad you typed all that so didn't have to

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16 hours ago, ltrain7281 said:

I like your idea with the 3 divisions but I don't see the BOD thinning the herd down unless maybe they get rid of L10. L10 is the only division that I very rarely ever hear anyone say that they shoot. If a 3 division rule was put in place the BOD would still have to create sub-divisions or categories for the other style guns. People that enjoy shooting SS or revolver would be at a huge disadvantage in the 3 divisions you listed. And as much as I hate to say this... which division does PCC shoot in? The fact of the matter is, if we only have 3 divisions the shooters who do not have a division for their gun will more than likely leave. That is when we will see the "Watering Down" affect that several people have mentioned. I doubt most people will have the mindset that if USPSA got rid of the division they like competing in they would suck it up try to beat everyone in a division with a gun that is not competitive. They will more than likely go to a sport that has a division that is suited for their equipment.   

 

 

They don't need sub divisions. The guys that want to compete to win will by the equipment needed to do do. The guys that want to show up and have gun with their buddies will still shoot their CO guns or SS guns and have a good time. Its not like most of us haven't purchased at least one gun just for this sport.

 

Also as far as i am concerned local matches can have as many divisions as they please. Level 2 matches and above should be 3 divisions. 

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On 3/22/2018 at 7:39 PM, OdinIII said:

How would you keep guns that you don’t approve of out of your new compact class? I’m sure there is a heavy 4” barreled pistol out there somewhere that functions and can accept good sights. It’d be only a matter of time before a Shadow 2 short is born. It is just the nature of the beast!

Exactly! Let the gun companies go crazy and create new products for our sport. In my opinion the easiest way to keep unapproved guns out of this divisions is to create a an "Approved Gun List" just like Production division. If the gun isn't on the list then it will shoot in one of the other divisions. I would also suggest having a "Box" that the guns must fit in just like Production at level 2 matches and above. We could also put a weight limit on this division or it could be a weight limit on the individual guns like Production has. 

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6 hours ago, Balakay said:

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I frequently read  on this forum that it is the "Indian not the arrow" when comparing guns like Glocks to a heavier CZ.  Now you are trying to tell us that a 4in plastic gun is a major disadvantage.  My Stock 2  is shorter than his Stock 3.  Wah, wah, wah. FML.

 

Your premise of competing with carry gear is ridiculously flawed. No one wears a 2 layer belt with a drop offset holster with 6 mag pouches for concealed carry.

The whole notion of competitive equity sounds like some new age Millennial snowflakery. 

 

Why not have a sub-group of Limited shooters who are forced to shoot factory ammo because they can't or choose not to reload. 

 

If you carry a G19, save like $20 a week and you can buy yourself a shiny new G34 in a few months. 

 

As others have said, If you want to facilitate this change, make it happen, starting at a grass roots level.  Asking the Forum to validate your idea is not going to help your cause.

 

 

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Balakay- You are right about it's the Indian not the arrow. But your comparison of your Stock 2 and Stock 3 are not what I am talking about. What I said was that a compact gun like a Glock 19 is at big disadvantage compared to a 2011 or a heavier Shadow 2 or in your case a Stock 2 or 3. As far as the carry gear you mentioned, I have no idea where you came up with this. I have not said anything about competing with carry gear. If a division like what I am proposing was to start up, I would like to see the exact same gear be used that is legal in Production or SS divisions. As far as saving money up to but G34 that is not what this is about. All of the individuals that asked me about why there wasn't a division for compacts already has G34', Q5's,2011's, and Open guns. They already compete in all of our normal divisions several of them are very good shooters, one of them is a GM in his respected division.

 

I have no idea if you have read this entire thread or not but here is how this all came about. We hosted our yearly revolver friendly match last month and several of our normal shooters that typically compete in Production, Limited, and Open showed up and decided to use their carry guns, (compacts, I believe they were all using G19's, ). We all got to talking about carry guns and compacts and the conversation got brought up as to why the compact guns were lumped into the same divisions as Production and Limited. That got me to thinking about a division just for compacts were these sized guns could compete against each other and not against 2011's and longer heavier Production guns that are the most common.   

 

As far as validating my idea that was not my intention with the OP. I didn't really state this in the OP but what I am really looking for is suggestions on what people would like to see in a division like this. Example: What types of holsters, DOH like Production uses or heel above belt like SS uses. How many rounds allowed in mags: 10+1 like Production or let them fill their stock mags to full capacity? These are just a few quick questions that I have had and would like to hear everyone else's opinions on what they think would make the division the most successful? 

 

Also, worth noting is that our sport is in my opinion is like drag racing we are about speed and accuracy. I have no intentions or desires to see anything created like IDPA. Let the division use the same equipment that all our other divisions use. The only difference would be now instead of someone shooting a G19 against a custom 2011 they are now competing against a M&P Compact.   

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23 hours ago, Foxj66 said:

 

 

They don't need sub divisions. The guys that want to compete to win will by the equipment needed to do do. The guys that want to show up and have gun with their buddies will still shoot their CO guns or SS guns and have a good time. Its not like most of us haven't purchased at least one gun just for this sport.

 

Also as far as i am concerned local matches can have as many divisions as they please. Level 2 matches and above should be 3 divisions. 

Foxj66, I see your point in what you are saying and probably just like you I have many guns in the safe that were bought with only one purpose... competing in USPSA. As far as only three divisions at level 2 and above, I doubt that will ever happen in my opinion. Too much money would be lost by eliminating the other divisions.    

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. I didn't really state this in the OP but what I am really looking for is suggestions on what people would like to see in a division like this.


You're not getting it.

Literally no one wants to see a division like this.

There is zero demand for a carry division in USPSA.
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3 minutes ago, wtturn said:


 

 


You're not getting it.

Literally no one wants to see a division like this.

There is zero demand for a carry division in USPSA.

 

Then why was I asked about it by members who would like to see it? If you are not interested in the division then why even comment? Go troll somewhere else... 

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13 hours ago, ltrain7281 said:

Then why was I asked about it by members who would like to see it? If you are not interested in the division then why even comment? Go troll somewhere else... 

 

I was asked by members for a Kel Tec pf9 division. But then where will the snub nose revolvers guys compete? We're gonna need a J Frame division too. I have a buddy that has interest in shooting his Desert Eagle in USPSA. Let's go ahead and create the Desert Eagle division. If you aren't interested in those divisions, don't even troll me by commenting.

 

At what point does this become insanity?

 

In order to create a new division you should have to petition something like 3000 signatures from actual members saying it would become their primary division. Anything less than that, pick a division and go shoot buttercup.

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2 hours ago, Jake Di Vita said:

 

I was asked by members for a Kel Tec pf9 division. But then where will the snub nose revolvers guys compete? We're gonna need a J Frame division too. I have a buddy that has interest in shooting his Desert Eagle in USPSA. Let's go ahead and create the Desert Eagle division. If you aren't interested in those divisions, don't even troll me by commenting.

 

At what point does this become insanity?

 

In order to create a new division you should have to petition something like 3000 signatures from actual members saying it would become their primary division. Anything less than that, pick a division and go shoot buttercup.

I on board with the 3000 signatures for any new divisions, as that actually seems like a good idea. Because if that was the case I probably wouldn't have to write up a separate stage briefing/start position for pistols and PCC every month. I would have thought revolver division had a better chance of making a come back as opposed to PCC catching on like it has...  

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29 minutes ago, ltrain7281 said:

I on board with the 3000 signatures for any new divisions, as that actually seems like a good idea. Because if that was the case I probably wouldn't have to write up a separate stage briefing/start position for pistols and PCC every month. I would have thought revolver division had a better chance of making a come back as opposed to PCC catching on like it has...  

 

 

Have you ever shot revolver, its kinda like getting punched in the nuts every 6-8 rounds HAHA.  I tried revolver several times, but just cant get into it though.  I am not crazy about PCC for me either, however I have no problem with it at matches

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17 hours ago, ltrain7281 said:

. All of the individuals that asked me about why there wasn't a division for compacts already has G34', Q5's,2011's, and Open guns. They already compete in all of our normal divisions several of them are very good shooters, one of them is a GM in his respected division.

 

 

 

Sounds like they are just wanting a participation trophy.  Doesn't this blow the new guy idea that started this thread completely out of the water?

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1 minute ago, RJH said:

 

 

Have you ever shot revolver, its kinda like getting punched in the nuts every 6-8 rounds HAHA.  I tried revolver several times, but just cant get into it though.  I am not crazy about PCC for me either, however I have no problem with it at matches

No sir, I have never tried shooting revolver. Semi's are tough enough for me... As PCC I really don't have a big problem with it as it has brought a lot of growth to the sport at least in our area. I have also seen a lot of older shooters come back to the sport because PCC is easier on them. My only real issue with the PCC is that I have seen many B,C,& D class pistol shooters basically quit shooting pistols and start shooting PCC so that they can move up in the overall results. 

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8 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Sounds like they are just wanting a participation trophy.  Doesn't this blow the new guy idea that started this thread completely out of the water?

RJH, I never meant for this to be a new guy division. My original intent for the thread was to get ideas and suggestions geared strictly towards a compact gun division. Hell, as far I'm aware there isn't a whole lot we can do to help a new person place higher at their first match. They are going to have to start at the bottom just like the rest of us and work their way up. I would be willing to bet that 99.9% of all of us started on the bottom and got sh!t kicked out us every month until we started seriously dry firing and live firing on a consistent basis. In the 6 years that I have been part of this sport I yet to see anyone run before crawled. 

 

As far guys wanting a participation trophy I can't say with 100% certainly that wasn't their intent but if I had to guess I would say that it was not their intent. All the guys that brought that were talking about this are classified in several different divisions and have the guns and gear for each division. They all enjoy shooting a wide array of guns and divisions and a couple of them were GM's and M class shooters in their main division. Their main thought was that it seemed dumb that the compacts were just lumped into Limited and Production division to compete with guns that were much heavier and easier to shoot. After thinking about it for a while I thought they had a valid point so thought I would post it on here to get some more opinions. Little did I know I would beat with a stick like a dead horse, LOL 

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24 minutes ago, ltrain7281 said:

RJH, I never meant for this to be a new guy division. My original intent for the thread was to get ideas and suggestions geared strictly towards a compact gun division. Hell, as far I'm aware there isn't a whole lot we can do to help a new person place higher at their first match.

 

 

Fair enough, for some reason I though i had read that some where in this thread.  Still like the idea of having this as a stand alone match, not a new division, I think it would be fun and would shoot it.  No joking here, I think you or someone should come up with a Compact championship, kinda like SS nationals used to be.

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9 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

Fair enough, for some reason I though i had read that some where in this thread.  Still like the idea of having this as a stand alone match, not a new division, I think it would be fun and would shoot it.  No joking here, I think you or someone should come up with a Compact championship, kinda like SS nationals used to be.

 

Agree. I feel the same way about pcc (and maybe even SS) As a separate stand-alone match, they could be fun. As a replacement for real pistol racing divisions, they just seem lame.

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On 3/23/2018 at 6:45 AM, ltrain7281 said:

jeremiahD you may want to go back and read all my post from the beginning because you are completely missing my point on this topic. I don't send people to Limited or Production. I tell them the equipment rules when they ask me what division they need to shoot in and let them make up their own mind. As far as competing against the clock and themselves. This is a valid point but it is irrelevant in this discussion and few people will listen to this type of reasoning. The people that have asked me about this new division are not new shooters they have been shooting for several years and several of them are really good shooters. Several of them are law enforcement and they like using what they carry everyday. I am NOT suggesting we create a division for the new guy to come try out his new carry gear, your out in left field on this one... 

 

 

 

Actually, your exact words were " At our match it is not uncommon for us to have several 32 round all steel stages. So I will typically tell the new shooter to load their mags full and shoot Limited minor."  

 

It seems to me you started this conversation with your mind already made up and anyone disagreeing is either afraid of change or does not understand you.

 

Do as others suggested- run an outlaw match, get enough people who wish to shoot factory G19's or highpoints or whatever, and then petition the rulemakers.  Good luck.

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  • 4 weeks later...

For what it's worth, here's the take of someone new interested in shooting some USPSA and IDPA matches. USPSA seems more geared toward specialized guns and gear, whereas IDPA leans more toward common, less modified guns and gear. The obvious resistance to a new Compact Class is quite evident here. As the OP stated new classes have been added as USPSA felt necessary. Were people as opposed to PCC and Carry Optics? These are fairly new classes, far as I can tell. It, also, seems they're well received. At least by those shooting these classes. Some have advocated for 3 classes. How many shooters would walk away if that were to happen? Some have said a Compact Class isn't necessary as these guns fit in existing classes. What about PCC and Carry Optics? I assume Carry Optic came about so people could shoot with an optic, but not be forced to shoot in Open. Some have said spend the money on equipment and guns to be more competitive. Not everyone is in a position to do so. To plow $2000. or more into a rig to shoot 1 class in USPSA is out of the question for many. I frequent a local gun shop that does a huge business (they have 5 stores). I see 10+ guns sold at any given time. I see no Q5s, G34s, etc being sold. Although I'm sure they do in lesser numbers. They stock these as well as STI 2011s. What I see being sold are Sig P320s, G19s & 17s, PPQs, CZ P10s, etc. If a small percentage of these buyers were inclined to shoot a match, they'd show up with their new compact handgun. When they find out IDPA has a class that their gun fits into nicely, I suspect they'll go there. Some here have said as much; "Go shoot IDPA". That seems to me to be a pretty condescending attitude. If you want to grow your sport you need new shooters. Even sustaining it requires new shooters. Push them away and you may find the USPSA shrinking, going forward.

So here's my big take away. If this thread is even remotely representative of the USPSA membership, you all don't seem to care if people choose to shoot with IDPA. You feel no need to accommodate anyone that may want to shoot their new, possibly first, compact handgun in your match. I understand the OP's point and forward thinking. More and more people are buying handguns these days, and may want to try competing. When they come to USPSA and are forced to compete against purpose built guns, many will turn away. Some will "suck it up". Some may even spend the money on "competitive equipment". But I suspect many more will walk away or turn to IDPA. If that's what you want, turn your backs on them and get your wish. 

 

To ITrain7281, I applaud your thinking on this issue. You asked for suggestions. Possibly, at the very least, compact guns could be allowed to compete as a sub category, shooting minor PF, but be awarded major PF scoring?  

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How's this for a controversial opinon. My two day local match filled up in one minute on Sunday night. The Area match at the same range filled up in 6 minutes. We don't need any more new shooters. All of the matches within an hour of here (there are 6) are at capacity. We don't need any new shooters. 

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24 minutes ago, pdq5oh said:

..... But I suspect many more will walk away or turn to IDPA. If that's what you want, turn your backs on them and get your wish. 

 

 

No. Shooters are not going to abandon USPSA for because they want to shoot a G19 in a vest instead of a G34.  It is just not even close to being a viable alternative

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36 minutes ago, waktasz said:

How's this for a controversial opinon. My two day local match filled up in one minute on Sunday night. The Area match at the same range filled up in 6 minutes. We don't need any more new shooters. All of the matches within an hour of here (there are 6) are at capacity. We don't need any new shooters. 

"Members only" or "we don't need new guys" is how sports or hobbies die. Growth is a good thing, otherwise you become the small crazy group of guys who run around w guns.

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24 minutes ago, TrackCage said:

 Growth is a good thing, otherwise you become the small crazy group of guys who run around w guns.

We are already that in the eyes of most

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