World Shoot will change matches difficulty in USPSA?

[dvc4you]

I was wandering if the World Shoot will have any influence in how matches are designed in the US?

 

Will we see tighter shots, more low ports? More weak hand shooting?

 

Everyone seems to agree that was a very difficult match.... should we keep doing the hoser feasts?

 

 

 

 

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[Maximis228]

We have a different target because MURICA. I highly doubt anything changes. Just like before. 

[Sarge]

I don't like IPSC influence period. As for the world shoot, how many Americans shot it compared to how many Americans shot in the US over the last few weeks? Not even a ripple in the ocean by comparison. Our game here is solid as is. The last thing we want is for every local match to become a mini world shoot.

[motosapiens]

I personally liked the stages I saw, and I will likely incorporate greater difficulty and more 1 handed shooting in the stages I design.

[jester121]

Playing golf at St Andrews would be an amazing experience, but I certainly don't want to watch my idiot friends hack around a course like that every Saturday morning. No thank you.

[Hi-Power Jack]

I shot the Nationals only once (about ten years ago).

 

I was shooting OPEN, and was surprised that we were shooting side by side with Production shooters.

 

Going into the match, I fully expected more tight shots and longer distance targets - kind of disappointed.

 

I don't know if we need any outside influence, but I would think that the COF's could contain some

tighter shots (unless it's already changed in the past ten years).      

[CHA-LEE]

Given that USA won almost every Team competition in the IPSC World Shoot I would say that our "Hoser style" stage matches here in the US are good enough to enable us to effectively whip ass at the World Shoot as well.

 

It really comes down to what the average practical shooting customer WANTS TO shoot in the matches they choose to invest their $$$ into. If shooters want more IPSC style stages then we would see more IPSC matches happening all across the nation. The fact of the matter is that the average practical shooting customer wants to shoot USPSA style stages/matches far more than IPSC style and that is clearly evident in what is taking place every weekend all across the nation.

 

If USPSA Match Directors want to change their stage design to piss of their average customer base, go for it. Not knowing what your costumers want is the first step making your club fail. Good luck with that business plan.

[MikeBurgess]

I think if done carefully including hard shooting challenges in matches is a very good thing. I know shooters will rarely say their favorite stage was the one with the hard one but they will often say their favorite match was one that included some stages with very difficult shooting challenges and positions. Its about balance, just like food, My favorite is pizza just please don't feed it to me for every meal every day.  I will concede that some of the more physical challenges can be problematic for many of our more experienced customers so I tend to keep those to a minimum, but I still include them occasionally so shooters remember it is part of the sport they may see at a major match.

 

 

[MikeBurgess]

35 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

Given that USA won almost every Team competition in the IPSC World Shoot I would say that our "Hoser style" stage matches here in the US are good enough to enable us to effectively whip ass at the World Shoot as well.

 

I think what kind of stages are presented at local matches has almost (but not quite) nothing to do with this. These shooters spend WAY MORE time in practice than they do shooting local matches, they are also the type that would look at what they are likely to see at a match such as this and train hard at those areas they are least comfortable with.

 

I saw a interview with Vogel where he said he had been practicing on swingers with only the upper motion available because he knew that was what he was going to see.

[CHA-LEE]

Every USPSA club has its own "flavor" of stages and shooting challenges that are usually developed from many years of trial and error along with customer feedback. The local USPSA matches that I run use stages with a lot of movement and a good mixture of shot difficulty without going overboard. This is the flavor of stages that my customer base likes and keeps coming back for more. Could you test the waters by trying more difficult stages? Absolutely. Stage design should evolve along with the average shooters skill set. But at some point there is a definitive line that is crossed which competitors don't like doing. Where that line is exactly is different for every club. Any match director that pays attention to his customers and welcomes constructive feedback is already going to know where that line is for his average customer base. 

 

Simply put, I am not going to abuse my customer base by forcing them to perform unrealistic movement or shooting challenge simply because XYZ match had that kind of crap in their match. If I want to train for that stuff I will set it up in my own practice sessions so I can limit the abuse to myself.

 

 

[MikeBurgess]

24 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

Every USPSA club has its own "flavor" of stages and shooting challenges that are usually developed from many years of trial and error along with customer feedback. The local USPSA matches that I run use stages with a lot of movement and a good mixture of shot difficulty without going overboard. This is the flavor of stages that my customer base likes and keeps coming back for more. Could you test the waters by trying more difficult stages? Absolutely. Stage design should evolve along with the average shooters skill set. But at some point there is a definitive line that is crossed which competitors don't like doing. Where that line is exactly is different for every club. Any match director that pays attention to his customers and welcomes constructive feedback is already going to know where that line is for his average customer base. 

 

Simply put, I am not going to abuse my customer base by forcing them to perform unrealistic movement or shooting challenge simply because XYZ match had that kind of crap in their match. If I want to train for that stuff I will set it up in my own practice sessions so I can limit the abuse to myself.

 

 

Well stated 

[Ben Stoeger]

Just to clarify (because not everyone shot the world shoot)

There was NOTHING abusive about the stages. There were not any unmakeable shots. They didn't have no shoots all over the place. The movers were hittable. 

There was a bit more physicality in a couple of the stages. I think I put a knee pad on 5 times in 30 stages (that's more than normal). I had to shoot strong hand only for one 8 round stage. I had to fire 4 shots strong hand only on another stage. I fired a 6 round stage weak hand only.

 

One target shot through a low port lasered out to 44 meters, there were 2 other long targets on the same stage.

 

That's it... in 30 stages.

Penalties came from trying aggressive plans, timing things, or not shooting safety shots on the tougher movers. Pretty much any shooter will tell you that they made mistakes, it wasn't that the stages were abusive.

 

Edited September 6, 2017 by Ben Stoeger

[bird]

Congrats on your win Ben!

[Trent1k1]

I do SORT of like the ratio IPSC has of 3 short, 2 medium, 1 large stage.  

 

I don't want that many short stages, and I understand match flow, but shooting 32 round stages one after the other, they all become the same thing after a while.

 

We are experimenting in adding a 2nd, extra stage in the bay we shoot our classifiers in.  It will be some sort of a speed shoot, with 'maybe' a little SHO/WHO, or steel/prop sort of 8-10 round stage.  Just for some variety.

 

I shoot Open too, and even i'm asking for some variety.

[MikeBurgess]

2 hours ago, Ben Stoeger said:

Just to clarify (because not everyone shot the world shoot)

There was NOTHING abusive about the stages. There were not any unmakeable shots. They didn't have no shoots all over the place. The movers were hittable. 

There was a bit more physicality in a couple of the stages. I think I put a knee pad on 5 times in 30 stages (that's more than normal). I had to shoot strong hand only for one 8 round stage. I had to fire 4 shots strong hand only on another stage. I fired a 6 round stage weak hand only.

 

One target shot through a low port lasered out to 44 meters, there were 2 other long targets on the same stage.

 

That's it... in 30 stages.

Penalties came from trying aggressive plans, timing things, or not shooting safety shots on the tougher movers. Pretty much any shooter will tell you that they made mistakes, it wasn't that the stages were abusive.

 

I think what people are reacting to is the differences from what a "normal" USPSA match looks like on video. Many USPSA clubs only ever run 1 short or medium course in a match and that is the classifier so when they watch a bunch of videos of the best shooters in the world shooting 4HF stages they think it must be so hard as to be nearly impossible.

[Ben Stoeger]

2 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I think what people are reacting to is the differences from what a "normal" USPSA match looks like on video. Many USPSA clubs only ever run 1 short or medium course in a match and that is the classifier so when they watch a bunch of videos of the best shooters in the world shooting 4HF stages they think it must be so hard as to be nearly impossible.

That's why I am taking the time to explain what the match was actually like, based on first hand experience at the match paired with more than a decade of shooting USPSA and 5 years of shooting IPSC in Europe.

[MikeBurgess]

Just now, Ben Stoeger said:

That's why I am taking the time to explain what the match was actually like, based on first hand experience at the match paired with more than a decade of shooting USPSA and 5 years of shooting IPSC in Europe.

And it is much appreciated,  

Thank you and Congratulations  World Champion!

[perttime]

Surely people are influenced by any good stages that they see. That doesn't have to mean that stage design overall would change.

 

If you see a feature that you like, don't copy it. Maybe adapt it to what you want to do.

[motosapiens]

I don't think it's at all about 'abusing' people, even tho many people are total pansies. I think the issue is that alot of MD's and stage designers are just lazy, so they make boring easy stages. 8 rounds, move, 8 rounds, move, 8 rounds, move, 8 rounds.   Lame. I'd way rather jump off roofs and in and out of tractor tires than shoot boring easy stages.

 

It's not at all hard to make more variety while still allowing reasonable options for the elderly and infirm. At any rate, many uspsa matches are getting too big to really handle anymore, so if a few sissies and whiners get discouraged by an increased challenge, that seems like a win.

[CHA-LEE]

I have a question about the "Half" open targets that were on some of the stages. These are the targets where the bottom half was physically cut off. Are these special half targets with a non-scoring boarder perf on the bottom? Or where they normal targets that were cut then a non-scoring boarder perf was added to it?

[perttime]

Cut IPSC paper targets must have a scoring border also on the cut edge, but it does not have to be a perforation. For a small Match, I'd just cut the target (and identical spares) and add the border with ruler and pencil....

[waktasz]

After seeing Kim's video I don't think it's all that different from a lot of USPSA matches. It's a world championship so yes the stages are harder than at your local match but it wasn't really that much different. 

Edited September 7, 2017 by waktasz

[wtturn]

There are elements from IPSC that would make typical USPSA matches more interesting.

 

I don't think anyone has advocated adopting IPSC flavor wholesale.

[LeviSS]

 

This shows all the stages...

Edited September 7, 2017 by LeviSS

[38supPat]

19 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

I have a question about the "Half" open targets that were on some of the stages. These are the targets where the bottom half was physically cut off. Are these special half targets with a non-scoring boarder perf on the bottom? Or where they normal targets that were cut then a non-scoring boarder perf was added to it?

Typically we will use hard cover tape along the cut edge to restore the non scoring border.