World Shoot will change matches difficulty in USPSA?

[rowdyb]

Things a little further away, things a little tighter of a shot, swingers with good less exposure. Sounds appropriately hard for a World shoot and for bays of that size. The targets made things tough, not outside stuff. Looked good to me and reminded me to make sure I work on my accuracy as well.

 

Local guy sent me match stages to look at for an upcoming match. I do have to admit to saying, "can you make as many possible of the targets further away?" because I simply wanted fewer shots 10 yards and under. (like none).

Edited September 7, 2017 by rowdyb

[zzt]

I'm certainly no expert, but I did read all the comments and watched the video posted above.  It certainly didn't look as hard as some have suggested.  If it was, then two of the clubs I shoot at have imaginative devils as course designers.  Some of their stages are downright evil, and harder than any I saw in the video.  I feel lucky.

[mikeinctown]

On ‎9‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 3:41 PM, dvc4you said:

 

I was wandering if the World Shoot will have any influence in how matches are designed in the US?

 

Will we see tighter shots, more low ports? More weak hand shooting?

 

Everyone seems to agree that was a very difficult match.... should we keep doing the hoser feasts?

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

 

Holy crap I only WISH one of the ranges I shoot at would do even one hose fest stage. I've shot there 6 times so far this year and another on this coming Sunday and there hasn't been one yet. The designer claims he is intentionally trying to make it as difficult as a level 2 or higher match o that we're prepared for if and when we want to shoot a bigger match. So we're frequently shooting from a box around a wall, through a 4" port, low ports, weak hand, distance, lots of no shoots are always all over with stuff behind barrels, 170* shots, lots of movement, etc. One stage a couple matches back had us shooting at like 30, 40, and 50 yards. The stages sure exploit how shitty one is, BUT I will say that it is always a good time and the match fills to capacity (75) a week out so there are lots who also like the challenge.

 

 

[zzt]

mike, sounds like two of the clubs I shoot at.  The tougher of the two fills up in minutes.  Last match, the squads were filled in just under 6 minutes of opening on Practiscore.

[IHAVEGAS]

On 9/5/2017 at 2:41 PM, dvc4you said:

More weak hand shooting?

 

Or fewer 1 hand classifiers? 

Seems like a frequent test problem that never happens on a real stage.

 

On 9/6/2017 at 6:46 AM, Ben Stoeger said:

There was NOTHING abusive about the stages. There were not any unmakeable shots. They didn't have no shoots all over the place. The movers were hittable. 

 

Good info.

Seemed to make IDPA look non-cheesy with all the visual gimmicks, but if that is what folks like and they are doing the work to mess with it  . . . .

 

8 hours ago, zzt said:

If it was, then two of the clubs I shoot at have imaginative devils as course designers.  Some of their stages are downright evil, and harder than any I saw in the video.  I feel lucky.

 

+1

[perttime]

I rarely see low ports at the low level matches or practice sessions I go to.

The evil thing at a recent Level 2 were the many plates and poppers that had No-Shoots behind them.

 

You've gotta have the occasional really close target....

Totally different vision/focus for hitting them fast. Mix them with distant targets, and you have quick shifts in how you see and shoot.

Edited September 9, 2017 by perttime

[zzt]

I put no-shoots behind plates to slow the spray and pray crowd.  It works.  Another club puts rows of mini poppers in front of white barrels.  You have to knock them down in sequence.  The last popper blends into the barrel and many don't shoot at it, because they didn't see it, or didn't count hits.  At a recent match, one stage had a boat load of transitions and movements.  Near the end you shot a popper activator which started a swinger moving.  The swing was completely hidden by no shoots, so there was no shot from that position.  You had to back up and run around a wall to get a shot at the small portion of the target as it swung from behind the vertical wall and before it was hidden by a horizontal wall.   There were also popper activated disappearing targets on that stage.  I'm thankful the clubs I shoot at have the resources to put on such interesting matches.  They are all Level 1 BTW.

 

 

[StuckinMS]

On 9/5/2017 at 2:48 PM, Sarge said:

I don't like IPSC influence period. As for the world shoot, how many Americans shot it compared to how many Americans shot in the US over the last few weeks? Not even a ripple in the ocean by comparison. Our game here is solid as is. The last thing we want is for every local match to become a mini world shoot.

I agree Sarge.  Not many have the ambition to become national level competitors.  Local and level 2 matches should not be based solely on the higher level competitions.  They should have a balance of technical difficulties and skill sets.  This sport is supported largely by hobbyist and balanced matches will ensure that those hobbyist keep coming.  Throw in a difficult stage or 2 but don't ruin the FUN by making the entire match a physics project.

[waktasz]

7 hours ago, perttime said:

I rarely see low ports at the low level matches or practice sessions I go to.

The evil thing at a recent Level 2 were the many plates and poppers that had No-Shoots behind them.

 

You've gotta have the occasional really close target....

Totally different vision/focus for hitting them fast. Mix them with distant targets, and you have quick shifts in how you see and shoot.

 

Low ports suck at major matches because inevitably someone will have to lay face down in a 6 inch puddle of mud water on their first stage in the rain and have soggy underpants for the rest of the day, and someone else will have 85 degrees and sun for their entire match.

[perttime]

USPSA IS IPSC with different paper targets and a few other deviations in the details.

IPSC World Shoot relates to IPSC Level 1 and 2 about the same as USPSA Nationals do to USPSA Level 1 and 2.

 

(Just came home from an IPSC Club Match. Nothing too elaborate or physically hard. Some walls to make it shoot-them-as-you-see-them. Some close targets, far targets (not all that far), and windows thrown in.)

[Gooldylocks]

On 9/8/2017 at 2:54 PM, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Or fewer 1 hand classifiers? 

Seems like a frequent test problem that never happens on a real stage.

I can think of several stages at several matches throughout this year that have required SHO/WHO just in a regular stage because of stage design. I think that is a very important part of this game. 

 

I think an ideal 10 stage level 2 would probably look like this, and then extrapolate it out for bigger matches:

3 28-32 round field courses, lots of movement, some hosing, some technical shooting

3 18-27 round field courses, ideally these would include some very technical shooting/positional work/steel at various ranges

4  <17 round courses, these absolutely should be a combination of technical shooting/movers/activator sequences/one handed shooting

[IHAVEGAS]

7 hours ago, Gooldylocks said:

I can think of several stages at several matches throughout this year that have required SHO/WHO just in a regular stage because of stage design. I think that is a very important part of this game. 

 

Probably a regional thing. I can't remember ever seeing a stage that required one hand or anybody wanting to shoot courses below 32 rounds + - . 

Edited September 11, 2017 by IHAVEGAS

[Richc2048]

I am a BOD of an indoor club that gets the experienced GM to the new type shooters that only go to indoor matches. We tend to stay with 'easier' stages but I make a point not to do 8x8x8x8 stages. I feel like it's a type of stage newer shooters can shoot and the GM's can work on speed and pushing transitions or shooting on the move. Like Cha-Lee says. It's about the customer.

[rowdyb]

I know I prefer to not shoot 32 round stages over and over again. Just like I prefer to not shoot mirror image/symmetrical stages over and over again.

[motosapiens]

On 9/9/2017 at 5:33 AM, zzt said:

I put no-shoots behind plates to slow the spray and pray crowd.  It works.  Another club puts rows of mini poppers in front of white barrels.  You have to knock them down in sequence.  The last popper blends into the barrel and many don't shoot at it, because they didn't see it, or didn't count hits.  

 

 

 

why do you feel the need to 'slow down' anyone? If the target isn't easy, people will have to aim harder anyway? I think in general no-shoots behind steel are really stupid, and discouraging for less experienced shooters.

 

I also get suspicious when I hear any stage designer talk about slowing certain people down. Makes it sound like the stage designer is old and lame and doesn't practice anymore, and is sad that people that do practice are much faster. That may not apply to you, but that's the impression that statement leaves.

[zzt]

moto, I do that at our club, not for USPSA shoots.  Unfortunately, our club does not permit jacketed bullets on steel, or running with a loaded gun.  I shoot USPSA and Steel Challenge elsewhere.

 

We do have an outlaw steel league.  All centerfire guns compete in the same category.  It doesn't matter if minor/major, iron/optic, etc.  It is not unusual for the hicap crowd to spray and pray and empty a 20 round mag on a 5 or 8 steel stage.  There is no movement, so the old and slow vs. young and fast is not an issue.  Placing a NS behind a steel makes that target more challenging.  So does putting a stop plate in front of and partially occluding a regular target.  I makes you aim.

 

BTW, I got the idea for the NS behind at a sanctioned USPSA shoot at a club noted for its complicated stages requiring lots of movement.  This club is also the one who uses the popper arrays I mentioned.  I love it.

Edited September 11, 2017 by zzt

[Racinready300ex]

18 minutes ago, zzt said:

moto, I do that at our club, not for USPSA shoots.  Unfortunately, our club does not permit jacketed bullets on steel, or running with a loaded gun.  I shoot USPSA and Steel Challenge elsewhere.

 

We do have an outlaw steel league.  All centerfire guns compete in the same category.  It doesn't matter if minor/major, iron/optic, etc.  It is not unusual for the hicap crowd to spray and pray and empty a 20 round mag on a 5 or 8 steel stage.  There is no movement, so the old and slow vs. young and fast is not an issue.  Placing a NS behind a steel makes that target more challenging.  So does putting a stop plate in front of and partially occluding a regular target.  I makes you aim.

 

BTW, I got the idea for the NS behind at a sanctioned USPSA shoot at a club noted for its complicated stages requiring lots of movement.  This club is also the one who uses the popper arrays I mentioned.  I love it.

 

If it takes 20 rounds for 5-8 pieces of steel, they should not be winning.

[motosapiens]

11 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

If it takes 20 rounds for 5-8 pieces of steel, they should not be winning.

yeah, 12-15 makeup shots seems like a sufficient time penalty for people who like pulling the trigger more than they like hitting the target. But whatever.... I'm pretty accurate, so  stuff  like no-shoots behind steel usually works in my favor, even tho it's dumb.

[zzt]

On 9/11/2017 at 0:12 PM, motosapiens said:

yeah, 12-15 makeup shots seems like a sufficient time penalty for people who like pulling the trigger more than they like hitting the target. But whatever.... I'm pretty accurate, so  stuff  like no-shoots behind steel usually works in my favor, even tho it's dumb.

 

You would think.  However, it isn't always 12-15 extra shots, and sometimes they do win, at least a stage.  It takes an average shooter somewhere between 4 and 5 seconds to hit eight steel with 8 aimed shots.  It is possible to spray 16 shots in less time and hope for the best.  I don't have a problem with that approach (because it usually doesn't work); however, sometimes I'm just evil and want to penalize misses.  When the speedsters end up zeroing a stage, they get the hint.

[Thomas H]

5 hours ago, zzt said:

 

You would think.  However, it isn't always 12-15 extra shots, and sometimes they do win, at least a stage.  It takes an average shooter somewhere between 4 and 5 seconds to hit eight steel with 8 aimed shots.  It is possible to spray 16 shots in less time and hope for the best.  I don't have a problem with that approach (because it usually doesn't work); however, sometimes I'm just evil and want to penalize misses.  When the speedsters end up zeroing a stage, they get the hint.

 

What hint, though?  "We don't want you to shoot fast?"

I mean, if spray and pray wins sometimes, apparently they are doing it right those times.

 

Note:  I'm not against the occasional no-shoot behind a steel.  Or whatever else.  I just prefer my reasoning to be along the lines of "let's not have every stage the same, let's give different shooting challenges on different stages" as opposed to:

On 9/9/2017 at 6:33 AM, zzt said:

I put no-shoots behind plates to slow the spray and pray crowd.

 

...because there is a difference between saying "let's give different shooting challenges" and "let's take one group and do something specifically to affect them."

 

 

[mikeinctown]

On ‎9‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 2:48 PM, zzt said:

 

You would think.  However, it isn't always 12-15 extra shots, and sometimes they do win, at least a stage.  It takes an average shooter somewhere between 4 and 5 seconds to hit eight steel with 8 aimed shots.  It is possible to spray 16 shots in less time and hope for the best.  I don't have a problem with that approach (because it usually doesn't work); however, sometimes I'm just evil and want to penalize misses.  When the speedsters end up zeroing a stage, they get the hint.

 

I'm with  the others. Having a no shoot behind steel only penalizes shooters who are already slower and not as good anyway. Any time someone claims they need to slow someone down, all they are doing is making it more difficult for everyone else and extremely difficult for those newer shooters that you are going to eventually need to RO and help with setuip and tear down. The good peoiple are going to win anyway and you'll alienate some people who don't want to deal with the nonsense. I'm all about tough shots, but do it where you are covering half a metric target with a no shoot or leave the head box open, or cover half with black/hard cover. OR do it virginia count. 6 plates, 6 shots, NPM... aim well and you'll be rewarded.

[Trent1k1]

We have guys build stages at our club with the sole intention of slowing down the Open guys.  (of which i'm one).  When I ask them how long the stage will take an 'average' C class Production shooter to shoot the stage they often have no idea.

 

I like a challenge as much as the next guy.  Throw a headshot target at 5 yards through a port, but make it available from 15 yards from another position.  Everyone can decide then what is the best stage plan for them. 

 

Risk vs. Reward and options

 

World shoot had options on the stages.  Not all were viable options though.  

 

I think that overall, the shooters of USPSA do a pretty good job of offering a variety of stage designs.

[blasterboy]

Love stages with options!  Why do so many stage designers place walls and no shoots until there's only 1 place to shoot a target from?  It's boring watching an entire squad do exactly the same routine.  Let people gamble, this is a physical and mental game, don't make it 1 dimensional.  If half the competitors zero the stage or run out of ammo, it might be to hard.  If the targets are so close that the fastest runner wins every time, it might be too easy or maybe you need to get back in shape to run faster.  I remember a video where a cameraman stays on Rob Leatham as he waits to shoot a stage (he's last in his squad); as he waited, I think he changed his strategy 3 times; at 1 point he says, "there's not a shot in this stage that's difficult, until you try and do it faster than everybody in the world".  How true is that?

 

[abb1]

I have never been fond of 'hoser' stages. I like a match that has a good variety of challenging stages including one handed shooting stages, and challenging shooting positions with a lot of movement. One stage being a hoser out of 12-16 is ok, but more than that, it kinda sucks.

[zzt]

On 9/24/2017 at 7:32 PM, abb1 said:

I have never been fond of 'hoser' stages. I like a match that has a good variety of challenging stages including one handed shooting stages, and challenging shooting positions with a lot of movement. 

 

Boy do I agree with that.  I shoot Open.  Shooting a stage where you can hose half the targets, then take a step or two and hose the rest is boring.  Even though I'm a slow moving 70 year old, I prefer stages that require thinking and movement.  Otherwise, just shooting holes in a paper target is boring.