ES13Raven Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 In the great debate of preferred 9mm bullet weight, I've seen many shooters say they prefer the 147 over 115 or 124 because of less recoil. They say the recoil impulse is more of a "push" and softer than the snappier 124gr loads. I've also seen shooters say they like the 124gr because the gun cycles faster and prefer the lower cost. I've shot 147s for several years, and never felt they were "slow" in my CZ or Glock. I have pulled off splits as low as .11 so they cycle the gun fast enough. During a recent class I took with Ben Stoeger, he had us doing a drill where we were to shoot a decently fast split at a 15 yard target, really concentrate on seeing the 2nd shot and try to get that shot off as soon as possible when the sight picture was acceptable. This was the first time I have felt like I was waiting on the gun. I was ready to pull the trigger again, but the sights had not settled yet. I had two thoughts: Maybe my recoil spring is worn and I need a new one to close the slide quicker (I use an 11#). Or maybe the slightly higher recoil of the 124gr load would snap the gun back on target faster, as some shooters have reported. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djcsmith Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 What bullet weight does Ben use? I'm sure if you asked him, he would tell you that better time-savings are gained during transitions, reloads, and the draw. The 124 vs 147 decision will probably never loose you a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 "Waiting on the gun" is the reason many people prefer the 124's .... I haven't reached that stage of development yet - perhaps if I took a course with Ben, or tried that exercise. Just might mean that you're getting better - as a result of Ben's course? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishsticks Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 Load up both and run the same drills on the same day using each separately. The times should determine if there is a significant enough difference to make the change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mach1soldier Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 I noticed a slight difference when I went to a lighter bullet but based on the timer, it was more in my head then on the clock. Maybe .02 better on a good run but most times it was just my perception that changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Mitch Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 Plenty of people are running 8lbs and 9lbs recoil springs in 9mm hammer fired guns. Your recoil spring isn't the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHitchcock Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 Ben uses 147s. He has also commented that bullet weight doesn't really matter on his pod cast. Personal preference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrn1975 Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 I have found that when you are really focused, as in your case watching the front sight return, everything feels like it is in slow motion so my guess is that it is your perception. Bullet weight will have little impact on how fast you can split. Optimizing your grip and recoil spring will allow your sights to settle faster. I suggest that you take some slow motion video of your gun being fired. This will help you determine if your current recoil spring is optimized for your load. Pay attention to when the slide returns to ensure that gun doesn't exhibit a "bounce". If the gun dips when the slide closes, try a lighter recoil spring. It is all a balancing act. Too light may effect reliability and to heavy may cause the sights to "bounce" a bit. In the end, you want to "tune" the gun to your load and style of shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathanb Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 Vogel also runs a 147. Just an FYI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 I have found that when you are really focused, as in your case watching the front sight return, everything feels like it is in slow motion so my guess is that it is your perception. +1. When i work on my grip more, the sights settle faster, regardless of bullet weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muldune21 Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 I tried different recoil springs couldn't really tell a difference plus or minus two lbs. Then again I am probably not that good yet, I do agree with jrn1975 on try tuning your gun your style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ES13Raven Posted June 27, 2016 Author Share Posted June 27, 2016 I suggest that you take some slow motion video of your gun being fired. This will help you determine if your current recoil spring is optimized for your load. Pay attention to when the slide returns to ensure that gun doesn't exhibit a "bounce". If the gun dips when the slide closes, try a lighter recoil spring. It is all a balancing act. Too light may effect reliability and to heavy may cause the sights to "bounce" a bit. As long as bullet feeding is reliable, are there any disadvantages to having a really light recoil spring? For example, the slide has less resistance sliding to the rear and "slams" into the rear of the frame causing more muzzle flip? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrswanson1 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 It's not just recoil. The lighter bullets have more noise and blast versus the 147s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 I suggest that you take some slow motion video of your gun being fired. This will help you determine if your current recoil spring is optimized for your load. Pay attention to when the slide returns to ensure that gun doesn't exhibit a "bounce". If the gun dips when the slide closes, try a lighter recoil spring. It is all a balancing act. Too light may effect reliability and to heavy may cause the sights to "bounce" a bit. As long as bullet feeding is reliable, are there any disadvantages to having a really light recoil spring? For example, the slide has less resistance sliding to the rear and "slams" into the rear of the frame causing more muzzle flip? i've done a little experimentation on my 45 1911 trying to figure out exactly this question. a 12lb recoil spring caused the perceived recoil (impact against my hand, not necessarily muzzle flip) to increase compared to a 14lb recoil spring. going higher than 14lb seemed to make the muzzle dip more when the slide came forward. It seems to me that muzzle movement when the slide comes forward is more of a problem for shooting quickly and accurately than muzzle movement or recoil as the slide reaches its rearward limit of travel. However I also found that after 1 or 2 strings, I adjusted my grip to compensate for different behavior of different springs, so now I mostly just worry about how far the rounds are ejecting. If they are too close to me, I go lighter on the recoil spring. I think there is more to be gained by learning how to shoot better than by trying to tune the rhythm of the gun to suit my *current* skill level and grip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ES13Raven Posted June 28, 2016 Author Share Posted June 28, 2016 I think there is more to be gained by learning how to shoot better than by trying to tune the rhythm of the gun to suit my *current* skill level and grip. Awesome that you tested that out. For closer targets, we should be able to compensate for different recoil springs by using a good, strong grip. But for targets 15 yards and farther, I think taking the time to tune the recoil spring to snap back to the original POA can save some time. The sooner I can get that second shot off with an A or close C, the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 I think there is more to be gained by learning how to shoot better than by trying to tune the rhythm of the gun to suit my *current* skill level and grip. Awesome that you tested that out. For closer targets, we should be able to compensate for different recoil springs by using a good, strong grip. But for targets 15 yards and farther, I think taking the time to tune the recoil spring to snap back to the original POA can save some time. The sooner I can get that second shot off with an A or close C, the better. it is not going to snap back to the original POA with any recoil spring unless you force it to do so with your grip and the force you put into the gun to manage recoil. You may find it easier to manage the recoil with a particular spring combination, but I found that after a few shots I adjusted my input to the gun to compensate. The first few followup shots tended to go low after switching to a heavier spring, and they tended to go high after switching to a lighter one, but after the first few I just subconsciously adjusted my input to the gun. I encourage you to experiment on 15-25 yard targets however. Your results may well be entirely different from mine (or someone else's) and the only way you will know for sure is to test it yourself and report back to the group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 In my thinking, the biggest variable in the system isn't really the bullet weight, load, or spring. The biggest variable is the shooter. Timing Drill: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=235707 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtimelarry Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 I think it's the way the sights settle (come back faster) with the 124 Gr. I like the feel of the 147 but it seems like my sights are moving in Molasses. With the 124 Gr. it has a bit more snap and my sights come back perfect for my style. It's all personal preference for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbob21 Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 (edited) On his podcast Ben and the others say they've all shot 124-147 and while they prefer the recoil impulse of 147s, they shoot 124s (mostly) because they're cheaper and they don't seem to be so harsh on the gun... I run 135s, happy medium. But that's in glocks/XD's... I'll prolly switch to 124s when I get an all metal stock2 like those guys. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Edited June 29, 2016 by bigbob21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 In my thinking, the biggest variable in the system isn't really the bullet weight, load, or spring. The biggest variable is the shooter. Timing Drill: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=235707 This drill should give you the feedback you (we) need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 100% agree ^^^^ thanks.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 I could feel the difference between an 11# and 13# recoil spring in my gun shooting 147s. I shot the 11 for a long time but am now happy with the 13. All through a lot of guess, check, refine, adapt. Oh accushadows and sp01s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 I'm so confused. When you go back to the original post, my assumption was that the shooter had improved his ability to track the sights through recoil or had improved his speed of awareness or whatever you want to call it. This is probably tied to the assumption that there is always a settling process for every shooter at every skill level. When you consider 'timing the gun' , this appears to be taking a well aimed first shot and then relying on your grip / stance / mechanics to consistently bring the second shot back on target in a fixed amount of time. One process being aim-shoot-aim-shoot and the other process being aim-shoot-wait-shoot . Apples versus oranges, or aim I just looking at things wrong ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ES13Raven Posted July 2, 2016 Author Share Posted July 2, 2016 I have found that when you are really focused, as in your case watching the front sight return, everything feels like it is in slow motion so my guess is that it is your perception. Bullet weight will have little impact on how fast you can split. Optimizing your grip and recoil spring will allow your sights to settle faster. I suggest that you take some slow motion video of your gun being fired. This will help you determine if your current recoil spring is optimized for your load. Pay attention to when the slide returns to ensure that gun doesn't exhibit a "bounce". If the gun dips when the slide closes, try a lighter recoil spring. It is all a balancing act. Too light may effect reliability and to heavy may cause the sights to "bounce" a bit. In the end, you want to "tune" the gun to your load and style of shooting. So I did some testing today with recoil springs and slo mo video. The video doesn't lie.With 10# and 11# my gun and load return slightly higher than original POA. I have something good in the background to reference, and you can clearly see it return a little high and I adjust the gun lower for the next shot. The 12# spring seems to be perfect. It returns to the original POA and ejects brass about 5 feet away. This was with 147gr bullets at 130pf, I will try 124s next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muldune21 Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 I like 147 but when it comes down to it, shooting is shooting, tweaking will only do a fraction of what normal talent/practice can do. Top guys will shoot better no matter what bullet weight you use, less focus on bullet and equipment more on practice. I am guilty, heavily guilty of this myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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