shooter slips and falls down. do you stop them?

[d_striker]

Here's a related question. What if they fall and place the gun on the ground in order to get up and then pick the gun up. Is that considered a dropped gun?

No.

Rule# 10.5.3

"Note that a competitor who, for any reason during a course of fire, safely and intentionally places the handgun on the ground or other stable object will not be disqualified provided:,,,,"

Good cite.

[GrumpyOne]

Here's a related question. What if they fall and place the gun on the ground in order to get up and then pick the gun up. Is that considered a dropped gun?

No.

Rule# 10.5.3

"Note that a competitor who, for any reason during a course of fire, safely and intentionally places the handgun on the ground or other stable object will not be disqualified provided:,,,,"

Good cite.

That gun has to be in a ready condition as specified in 8.1...or empty chamber, mag removed, and slide locked back or cylinder open and empty...

[bret]

As long as there is no safety issue I would not stop a shooter who has fallen. I have seen many, some pretty painful. The shooter has to make the decision to continue or retire. Perhaps at a local match with new shooters you would stop them and let them reshoot but at a big match the ROs should not be giving out freebees.

Doug

Again, I'm not saying you stop every competitor who falls. But if the RO has the least bit of doubt in their mind the competitor can safely continue, I think it's the RO's responsibility to stop the competitor and sort things out, rather than potentially letting it ride and turn into a bad situation.

Can't find that in the rule book, can you show me where it is?

[frag316]

7.1.1?

7.1.1 Range Officer (“RO”) – issues range commands, oversees competitor compliance with the written stage briefing and closely monitors safe competitor action.

(Emphasis mine)

And the fact that every CRO at the big matches I've attended generally say something like "It's our responsibility to safely assist you thru the course of fire."

[mont1120]

At my recent RO class, it was relayed a shooter can lay a gun down and safely retrieve it provided there is no 180 broken or finger in the trigger guard. There was no mention of clearing the firearm or putting it on safe. This was in reference to myself having bad knees and finding it safer to lay the gun down, then stand back up and retrieve the pistol after being placed in a shooting position on my back or stomach. Perhaps someone can clarify this?

[motosapiens]

I stop people when they need to be stopped, not so I can hold their hands and ask if they are ok. If the shooter can get back up and keep shooting, I'm going to let him do so, and not penalize his competitors by giving out unjustified reshoots. As a shooter, you own your run, including the falls.

[motosapiens]

At my recent RO class, it was relayed a shooter can lay a gun down and safely retrieve it provided there is no 180 broken or finger in the trigger guard. There was no mention of clearing the firearm or putting it on safe.

You may have not been paying attention. the rules are clear. the gun must be either cleared or in an appropriate ready condition. An unsafe gun like a glock can just be layed down. A real gun like a 1911 must be on safe or cleared. A DA/SA gun like a cz must either be on safe, or have the hammer lowered manually or be cleared.

[d_striker]

Here's a related question. What if they fall and place the gun on the ground in order to get up and then pick the gun up. Is that considered a dropped gun?

No.

Rule# 10.5.3

"Note that a competitor who, for any reason during a course of fire, safely and intentionally places the handgun on the ground or other stable object will not be disqualified provided:,,,,"

Good cite.

That gun has to be in a ready condition as specified in 8.1...or empty chamber, mag removed, and slide locked back or cylinder open and empty...

So safety on for 1911/2011's. What about da/sa guns? Hammer must be down or would safety suffice?

[ChuckS]

Here are the specifics. Come on, kids, RTFB.

10.5.3.3 The provisions of Rule 10.5.2 do not occur, and
10.5.3.4 The handgun is in the ready condition as specified in Section 8.1, or
10.5.3.5 A self-loading pistol has an empty chamber, the magazine removed and the slide locked open, or
10.5.3.6 A revolver has the cylinder open and empty.

[motosapiens]

10.5.3.4 The handgun is in the ready condition as specified in Section 8.1, or

I would interpret this as meaning the ready condition for that type of pistol, not the start condition for that division, so for a cz-type gun, safety on is perfectly OK. There is no requirement to decock or fully lower the hammer.

I worked a stage at 2013 A1 that had a low port that many people went prone for, and we discussed this exact situation with the RM and briefed the squads as to their options.

[ChuckS]

10.5.3.4 The handgun is in the ready condition as specified in Section 8.1, or

I would interpret this as meaning the ready condition for that type of pistol, not the start condition for that division, so for a cz-type gun, safety on is perfectly OK. There is no requirement to decock or fully lower the hammer.

I worked a stage at 2013 A1 that had a low port that many people went prone for, and we discussed this exact situation with the RM and briefed the squads as to their options.

I think along the same lines (8.1.2.3).

8.1 Handgun Ready Conditions

The ready condition for handguns will normally be as stated below. However, in the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the writ-ten stage briefing, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the Range Officer must not take any action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the handgun.

8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols:

8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged.

8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.

8.1.2.3 “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D).

(I have always been a bit confused by 8.1.2.2. If the gun is DA (as in DAO), isn't the hammer always fully down? The furthest that I have strayed from 1911 pistols is the CZ so pardon my ignorance)

[Sarge]

At my recent RO class, it was relayed a shooter can lay a gun down and safely retrieve it provided there is no 180 broken or finger in the trigger guard. There was no mention of clearing the firearm or putting it on safe. This was in reference to myself having bad knees and finding it safer to lay the gun down, then stand back up and retrieve the pistol after being placed in a shooting position on my back or stomach. Perhaps someone can clarify this?

you either misunderstood or the RMI screwed up.

[racerba]

8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols:

8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged.

8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.

8.1.2.3 “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D).

(I have always been a bit confused by 8.1.2.2. If the gun is DA (as in DAO), isn't the hammer always fully down? The furthest that I have strayed from 1911 pistols is the CZ so pardon my ignorance)

DAO - yes hammer is always down

DA - not necessarily...DA is the condition for a pistol that is DA/SA...decocking a DA pistol will not necessarily put the hammer all the way down.

Edited May 19, 2016 by racerba

[frag316]

I stop people when they need to be stopped, not so I can hold their hands and ask if they are ok. If the shooter can get back up and keep shooting, I'm going to let him do so, and not penalize his competitors by giving out unjustified reshoots. As a shooter, you own your run, including the falls.

I suppose that's all well and good, but how do you determine when "they need to be stopped?" What's your criteria?

I have mine and am comfortable with them, but I'd be interested in hearing yours.

[motosapiens]

I stop people when they need to be stopped, not so I can hold their hands and ask if they are ok. If the shooter can get back up and keep shooting, I'm going to let him do so, and not penalize his competitors by giving out unjustified reshoots. As a shooter, you own your run, including the falls.

I suppose that's all well and good, but how do you determine when "they need to be stopped?" What's your criteria?

I have mine and am comfortable with them, but I'd be interested in hearing yours.

I have run 1000's of shooters, and i have never seen anyone who needed to be stopped for anything other than a dq or suspected dangerous gun (squib or hammer-following). I guess I'm having a hard time imagining a situation where it would be justified. Perhaps if a shooter has a concussion but seems to be unaware and is acting strangely.

edit: one other thing to consider is if the shooter's eyepro or earpro are dislodged, the shooter must be stopped. I actually had a situation last weekend where an M class shooter fell hard getting off the swinging bridge. He popped right back up and shot the last 3 targets in about no time flat just as I was noticing that his eyepro was gone. If there had been any more targets, I would have stopped him, or he could have (probably should have) stopped himself.

Edited May 19, 2016 by motosapiens

[mont1120]

At my recent RO class, it was relayed a shooter can lay a gun down and safely retrieve it provided there is no 180 broken or finger in the trigger guard. There was no mention of clearing the firearm or putting it on safe.

You may have not been paying attention. the rules are clear. the gun must be either cleared or in an appropriate ready condition. An unsafe gun like a glock can just be layed down. A real gun like a 1911 must be on safe or cleared. A DA/SA gun like a cz must either be on safe, or have the hammer lowered manually or be cleared.

Yes, I missed it and stand corrected.

[frag316]

*shrugs* That's fine. If you can't conceive it, I don't think there's a point in continuing the conversation.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GrumpyOne]

8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols:

8.1.2.1 Single action chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged.

8.1.2.2 Double action chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.

8.1.2.3 Selective action chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D).

(I have always been a bit confused by 8.1.2.2. If the gun is DA (as in DAO), isn't the hammer always fully down? The furthest that I have strayed from 1911 pistols is the CZ so pardon my ignorance)

DAO - yes hammer is always down

DA - not necessarily...DA is the condition for a pistol that is DA/SA...decocking a DA pistol will not necessarily put the hammer all the way down.

Wouldn't a DAO pistol, with a live round in the chamber, be fully cocked and hammer/striker up? The only time that they aren't cocked is after ICHDH command, right?

[motosapiens]

*shrugs* That's fine. If you can't conceive it, I don't think there's a point in continuing the conversation.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Who are you replying to? I never used the word 'conceive'.

So you don't have the energy to explain some possible situations that I haven't seen or imagined? That seems a bit lazy, but I agree it does make further discussion pointless.

Seriously, I know my sarcasm obscures the issues sometime, but the whole reason I read this forum is to learn more about the rules and be a better RO, so if you can share some specific situations you have encountered that could help my understand, it would be most constructive.

Edited May 19, 2016 by motosapiens

[frag316]

*shrugs*

Look, so I used "conceive" instead of "imagine." Get over it.

I gave an example or two a couple of items above, so I figured you'd read them. If you still can't or won't IMAGINE them because you've run thousands of competitors, then I don't see the point in continuing the discussion, because you have decided you haven't seen a situation where you might stop someone for anything that's not DQ-able or a forbidden action or what have you.

Guys tweak knees and twist ankles all the time, and I personally wouldn't want them to try to continue unless I could verify they were physically able to do so.

I might think they lost control of the gun or something and be determined to be wrong after I say "stop."

So they get a reshoot, which apparently messes with competitive equity, which is apparently more important than the competitor's health or admitting an RO might have thought something happened that didn't.

I have a friend who was running a competitor who biffed it in a big way and he stopped her because he wasn't sure she'd retained control of the gun. She had, so she got a reshoot. Big flippin' deal--she got to reshoot the stage and didn't have to eat a stage with a poor time because the RO wanted to make sure the competitor was safe when she ate gravel.

How's that?

[emoji849]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[teros135]

This has been answered, and now we're slipping into the depths. Let's let it go, okay?

[Nik Habicht]

As long as there is no safety issue I would not stop a shooter who has fallen. I have seen many, some pretty painful. The shooter has to make the decision to continue or retire. Perhaps at a local match with new shooters you would stop them and let them reshoot but at a big match the ROs should not be giving out freebees.

Doug

Again, I'm not saying you stop every competitor who falls. But if the RO has the least bit of doubt in their mind the competitor can safely continue, I think it's the RO's responsibility to stop the competitor and sort things out, rather than potentially letting it ride and turn into a bad situation.

Can't find that in the rule book, can you show me where it is?

Start with Principle 6, continue with rule 1.1.1, 2.1.1, 2.1.5, 2.1.6, 2.2.2, 2.2.6, 2.3.1.1, 2.3.6, Section 2.4, rules 3.2.3, 3.2.6, 5.2.1, 5.2.2, 5.2.8, 5.2.9, 5.5.2, 5.7.2, 5.7.7.2, 7.1.6, 7.2.3 -- and that's just in first half o the rulebook.....

Given the repeated emphasis on safety frag316 interprets that correctly. If you're working as an RO, and have a concern, stopping the shooter is the only right move -- because safety trumps competitive equity......

[Nik Habicht]

I stop people when they need to be stopped, not so I can hold their hands and ask if they are ok. If the shooter can get back up and keep shooting, I'm going to let him do so, and not penalize his competitors by giving out unjustified reshoots. As a shooter, you own your run, including the falls.

I'm on board with this too. I rely on what I see and hear, and while I may decide not to utter "Stop" at one moment in time doesn't mean that I don't do it a split second later, when something has changed and tells me that's the prudent course of action......

[Nik Habicht]

8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols:

8.1.2.1 Single action chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged.

8.1.2.2 Double action chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.

8.1.2.3 Selective action chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D).

(I have always been a bit confused by 8.1.2.2. If the gun is DA (as in DAO), isn't the hammer always fully down? The furthest that I have strayed from 1911 pistols is the CZ so pardon my ignorance)

DAO - yes hammer is always down

DA - not necessarily...DA is the condition for a pistol that is DA/SA...decocking a DA pistol will not necessarily put the hammer all the way down.

Wouldn't a DAO pistol, with a live round in the chamber, be fully cocked and hammer/striker up? The only time that they aren't cocked is after ICHDH command, right?

Nope -- a hammer fired DAO gun like say the S&W 3rd gen autos (5943, 4043 if I remember the model numbers correctly) the hammer stays forward, i.e. down after every shot. Imagine a CZ-75 variant, where every shot is double action, i.e. the hammer never stays back, but follows the slide back down as the action cycles. There was no way for the hammer to be cocked -- they're like a DAO revolver essentially.

[GrumpyOne]

8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols:

8.1.2.1 Single action chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged.

8.1.2.2 Double action chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.

8.1.2.3 Selective action chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D).

(I have always been a bit confused by 8.1.2.2. If the gun is DA (as in DAO), isn't the hammer always fully down? The furthest that I have strayed from 1911 pistols is the CZ so pardon my ignorance)

DAO - yes hammer is always down

DA - not necessarily...DA is the condition for a pistol that is DA/SA...decocking a DA pistol will not necessarily put the hammer all the way down.

Wouldn't a DAO pistol, with a live round in the chamber, be fully cocked and hammer/striker up? The only time that they aren't cocked is after ICHDH command, right?

Nope -- a hammer fired DAO gun like say the S&W 3rd gen autos (5943, 4043 if I remember the model numbers correctly) the hammer stays forward, i.e. down after every shot. Imagine a CZ-75 variant, where every shot is double action, i.e. the hammer never stays back, but follows the slide back down as the action cycles. There was no way for the hammer to be cocked -- they're like a DAO revolver essentially.

Nik, you are talking about a very small segment of pistols, which the majority of competitors are not using. 99% of DAO striker fired guns are always cocked unless the trigger has been pulled. Now, with that being said, how can you apply the rule to that situation, especially in a striker fired gun with no external safety? You lay a glock on the ground, with a mag inserted, and a round in the pipe. No matter which way you slice it, that gun is cocked. And in violation of the rule.