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shooter slips and falls down. do you stop them?


Sandbagger123

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I think it's an RO's responsibility to stop someone who is in jeopardy of not being able to continue safely

That's your subjective view...

if the RO believes the competitor may have lost control of the gun.

that is a DQ regardless of your view

If I had a doubt in my mind and didn't stop the competitor and then something happened later that could have been prevented by stopping the competitor, I'd feel horrible--especially if someone got further injured or injured a spectator and I could have prevented it.

i still don't see a situation in which you let a competitor continue and he somehow turns around and shoots a spectator...what you state is hypothetical, very hypothetical...can something happen, sure it could...is it highly likely to happen? probably not...so why are we arguing? if i fell and broke my leg or hand and i want to continue, it's up to me to do so safely...once you see that i cannot continue safely because i can't hole my gun and it bouncing close to the 180, then you can stop me...and once you stop me, it should be the end of the day for me...up until that point, you, as an RO, can watch me and assist me in completing the CoF safely...nothing else...i don't care if i'm crawling to finish the stage...as long as i'm doing it safely, you should not stop me...

Edited by racerba
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I think it's an RO's responsibility to stop someone who is in jeopardy of not being able to continue safely

That's your subjective view...

if the RO believes the competitor may have lost control of the gun.

that is a DQ regardless of your view

If I had a doubt in my mind and didn't stop the competitor and then something happened later that could have been prevented by stopping the competitor, I'd feel horrible--especially if someone got further injured or injured a spectator and I could have prevented it.

i still don't see a situation in which you let a competitor continue and he somehow turns around and shoots a spectator...what you state is hypothetical, very hypothetical...can something happen, sure it could...is it highly likely to happen? probably not...so why are we arguing? if i fell and broke my leg or hand and i want to continue, it's up to me to do so safely...once you see that i cannot continue safely because i can't hole my gun and it bouncing close to the 180, then you can stop me...and once you stop me, it should be the end of the day for me...up until that point, you, as an RO, can watch me and assist me in completing the CoF safely...nothing else...i don't care if i'm crawling to finish the stage...as long as i'm doing it safely, you should not stop me...

A shooter bouncing close to the 180° has not violated any safety rules. Why stop him?

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A shooter bouncing close to the 180° has not violated any safety rules. Why stop him?

If he does not have full control of the gun...and the gun keeps coming close to the 180...this is where I'll agree with the OP that he wants to prevent something bad from happening...because the shooter is fighting the gun to keep it safe and it's coming close from being unsafe...

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A shooter bouncing close to the 180° has not violated any safety rules. Why stop him?

If he does not have full control of the gun...and the gun keeps coming close to the 180...this is where I'll agree with the OP that he wants to prevent something bad from happening...because the shooter is fighting the gun to keep it safe and it's coming close from being unsafe...

Getting close to 180 is not against the rules and not a safety violation.

What do.you mean by doesn't have full control of the gun?

Can you give examples?

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A shooter bouncing close to the 180° has not violated any safety rules. Why stop him?

If he does not have full control of the gun...and the gun keeps coming close to the 180...this is where I'll agree with the OP that he wants to prevent something bad from happening...because the shooter is fighting the gun to keep it safe and it's coming close from being unsafe...

Getting close to 180 is not against the rules and not a safety violation.

What do.you mean by doesn't have full control of the gun?

Can you give examples?

i fell and my shooting hand is bleeding and covered in blood i fire a shot and the gun bounces more than normal as in i lose complete grip of the gun...i may not have broke the 180, but you can tell that i cannot completely control the gun...

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Meh, blood by itself shouldn't make much difference. If there's arterial bleeding spurting everywhere, you should probably stop yourself anyway.

only example i can think of is if a shooter were to sustain a head injury/concussion, whether from falling or not, and starts acting confused or erratic.

but that's not what this thread was about, it was just about slipping and falling. In almost every imaginable situation, I can depend on the shooter to tell me if he's not ok, so I don't need to stop him and ask him. I've seen quite a few shooters fall in the various national and area and section matches I have worked (and also in some locals). I have not yet seen one that needed to be stopped, nor have I heard of one, but when I see it, I presume I will know it then.

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A shooter bouncing close to the 180° has not violated any safety rules. Why stop him?

If he does not have full control of the gun...and the gun keeps coming close to the 180...this is where I'll agree with the OP that he wants to prevent something bad from happening...because the shooter is fighting the gun to keep it safe and it's coming close from being unsafe...
Getting close to 180 is not against the rules and not a safety violation.

What do.you mean by doesn't have full control of the gun?

Can you give examples?

i fell and my shooting hand is bleeding and covered in blood i fire a shot and the gun bounces more than normal as in i lose complete grip of the gun...i may not have broke the 180, but you can tell that i cannot completely control the gun...

If you lost grip of the gun, then that is a dropped gun.

A gun bouncing a little more than normal is not a reason to stop a shooter.

A young shooter they have less hand strength so their gun may bounce more than another shooter, no reason to stop them.

I cut myself during a match, didn't have as good a grip on the gun as usual, there was no reason to stop me.

A shooter can run as much as they want to with their gun on the 180 line, it's not a safety violation for being close.

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Meh, blood by itself shouldn't make much difference. If there's arterial bleeding spurting everywhere, you should probably stop yourself anyway.

only example i can think of is if a shooter were to sustain a head injury/concussion, whether from falling or not, and starts acting confused or erratic.

but that's not what this thread was about, it was just about slipping and falling. In almost every imaginable situation, I can depend on the shooter to tell me if he's not ok, so I don't need to stop him and ask him. I've seen quite a few shooters fall in the various national and area and section matches I have worked (and also in some locals). I have not yet seen one that needed to be stopped, nor have I heard of one, but when I see it, I presume I will know it then.

I agree, blood in and of itself is not the factor...it's the out of control gun that would be the main factor...i was giving one example...your head injury with shooter acting confused is also another example and probably a better one...

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If you lost grip of the gun, then that is a dropped gun.

A gun bouncing a little more than normal is not a reason to stop a shooter.

A young shooter they have less hand strength so their gun may bounce more than another shooter, no reason to stop them.

I cut myself during a match, didn't have as good a grip on the gun as usual, there was no reason to stop me.

A shooter can run as much as they want to with their gun on the 180 line, it's not a safety violation for being close.

i'm not saying that was the only reason...hard to define, but i didn't say losing grip...i said losing complete grip...yes..similar to a younger shooter but it's different because the young shooter is not injured...there is a difference between a shooter and an injured shooter that shows signs of not being in complete control...

if you read the rest of my posts, you will notice that i am not condoning stopping the shooter...i only gave an example of when and only when i will/might agree with the OP and stop a shooter in order to prevent a major accident...

I agree most with Motosapiens when he says that when he sees it he will hopefully know when to stop the shooter...

Edited by racerba
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A shooter bouncing close to the 180° has not violated any safety rules. Why stop him?

If he does not have full control of the gun...and the gun keeps coming close to the 180...this is where I'll agree with the OP that he wants to prevent something bad from happening...because the shooter is fighting the gun to keep it safe and it's coming close from being unsafe...

Getting close to 180 is not against the rules and not a safety violation.

What do.you mean by doesn't have full control of the gun?

Can you give examples?

moto's example of a shooter hitting their head when they fall is a good one. If the shooter falls and maintains safe control, but hits their head and gets up looking off-balance and swinging erratically close to the 180, I would stop them. Because if they pass out and fall again, saying "STOP" at that point won't do much good.

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moto's example of a shooter hitting their head when they fall is a good one. If the shooter falls and maintains safe control, but hits their head and gets up looking off-balance and swinging erratically close to the 180, I would stop them. Because if they pass out and fall again, saying "STOP" at that point won't do much good.

The shooter I described back in this post was in that sort of shape. Legs bent and wobbly as hell, eyes rolling, gun still in [one] hand, wandering left and right, and clear to us, about to do something very unsafe.

As has been said, you know it when you see it it.

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moto's example of a shooter hitting their head when they fall is a good one. If the shooter falls and maintains safe control, but hits their head and gets up looking off-balance and swinging erratically close to the 180, I would stop them. Because if they pass out and fall again, saying "STOP" at that point won't do much good.

The shooter I described back in this post was in that sort of shape. Legs bent and wobbly as hell, eyes rolling, gun still in [one] hand, wandering left and right, and clear to us, about to do something very unsafe.

As has been said, you know it when you see it it.

Did you stop him and call 911?

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moto's example of a shooter hitting their head when they fall is a good one. If the shooter falls and maintains safe control, but hits their head and gets up looking off-balance and swinging erratically close to the 180, I would stop them. Because if they pass out and fall again, saying "STOP" at that point won't do much good.

The shooter I described back in this post was in that sort of shape. Legs bent and wobbly as hell, eyes rolling, gun still in [one] hand, wandering left and right, and clear to us, about to do something very unsafe.

As has been said, you know it when you see it it.

This response sounds perfectly reasonable, given the observations you stated. Next steps would be determined at the time. We're playing a sport with firearms and caution (safety) is our first concern.

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moto's example of a shooter hitting their head when they fall is a good one. If the shooter falls and maintains safe control, but hits their head and gets up looking off-balance and swinging erratically close to the 180, I would stop them. Because if they pass out and fall again, saying "STOP" at that point won't do much good.

The shooter I described back in this post was in that sort of shape. Legs bent and wobbly as hell, eyes rolling, gun still in [one] hand, wandering left and right, and clear to us, about to do something very unsafe.

As has been said, you know it when you see it it.

Did you stop him and call 911?

No, but I believe we should have.

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and falling doesn't need to be an excuse. we stopped a shooter a few years back because he was acting "funny". he didn't do anything wrong, but we stopped him anyway. as soon as we stopped him, he fainted. apparently he was diabetic and was having a seizure. we did call 911 and you should have heard the 911 operator when she heard gunshots in the background...

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Related to the original post. I would not stop the shooter without a good reason.

Also related because I am the one who did it. Be careful about excited utterances when the shoot falls. I had a shooter run to a small shooting box and as they tried to stop their feet slid out from under them. Watching him go down, I called out "WHOA" in the same excited manner as when we watch an accident about to take place. It was later pointed out to me by a CRO and a RM that I needed to be careful in situations like that because the word Whoa can be considered the same as yelling STOP and we would have had no choice but to issue him a reshoot had the shooter actually stopped.

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FWIW, a personal anecdote on getting injured during a COF:

I think it was at the '96 Nationals in Virginia where I drove hard out of a box wearing soccer cleats in that heavy red Virginia clay. I promptly ruptured an Achilles tendon.

I fell flat on my face, but kept the muzzle down range and out of the dirt. I was not stopped. I got up, took one step, and fell again, again gun safe. I was not stopped. I got up, hopped on one leg to the final shooting position and finished the final array of targets, I then sat down hard, in considerable pain, loaded gun still in hand.

After that, it was a bit hard to recall the exact events, but the RO and I went through clearing and holstering the gun safely (I don't know how I did that sitting down). I do remember having my rig taken off as I was helped off the stage (back then the rule about taking a holstered gun off your person was not in effect).

So I got to finish that stage (though obviously I did not finish the match) because I remained safe. The RO could see that, despite the pain, I wanted to go on, and did not stop me. I kind of appreciated that.

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JJ did this at the prod nationals. Since his pistol never hit the ground and he never broke 180, the RO did not stop him. He finished the match, not as well placed as he would have but still he did rather well overall, considering the fall and bruised ego.

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