shooter slips and falls down. do you stop them?

[GrumpyOne]

5.2.2 Competitors carrying their handgun in a holster must have an empty

magazine well, and the hammer or striker must be de-cocked. Anyone

found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range

Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective

action shall be made.

Ok, now we are getting somewhere...How can you lay a loaded Glock on the ground, without the striker being de-cocked? Sam for the gun ready condition?

Again, the ready condition for double action pistols..8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.

If you want to say that 8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged. Applies to Glocks, then they aren't Production legal..

You can't say that 8.1.2.3 “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D).Applies to Glocks, as there is only one way to fire them.

[bret]

Grumpy,

As an R.O. in the scenario I gave you, when a competitor places a loaded Glock on the ground during the COF, what would your call be if any?

[GrumpyOne]

Grumpy,

If you are the R.O. and a competitor goes prone for a stage and places a loaded Glock on the ground.

What would you do?

That depends on whether he de-cocked it before placing it on the ground....you guys are missing the point...it says hammer down OR de-cocked...the only time a Glock is de-cocked is on an empty chamber after the trigger has been pulled...Semantics? Yes...but be that as it may, it is not de-cocked until that moment...

Scenario,

I am using a Glock I fire a stage with a prone position and have another shooting area I will shoot in after that position.

I place the loaded Glock on the ground, get up from the prone position never getting further than 2 feet from the gun, the muzzle is pointed down range and I am behind the gun.

What would you do?

The gun is loaded, placed on the ground intentionally and facing down range.

10.5.3 If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or unloading, a competitor drops his handgun or causes it to fall, loaded or not. Note that a competitor who, for any reason during a course of fire, safely and intentionally places the handgun on the ground or other stable object will not be disqualified provided:

10.5.3.1 The competitor maintains constant physical contact with the handgun, until it is placed firmly and securely on the ground or another stable object, and

10.5.3.2 The competitor remains within 3 feet of the handgun at all times (except where the handgun is placed at a greater distance, under the supervision of a Range Official, in order to comply with a start position), and

10.5.3.3 The provisions of Rule 10.5.2 do not occur, and

10.5.3.4 The handgun is in the ready condition as specified in Section 8.1, or

10.5.3.5 A self-loading pistol has an empty chamber, the magazine removed and the slide locked open, or

10.5.3.6 A revolver has the cylinder open and empty.

By rule, the ready condition specified in 8.1 for double action auto loading pistols is 8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.

It is not de-cocked...

[Flexmoney]

It is not de-cocked...

Explain that part.

[bret]

Grumpy,

What would your call be?

[grapemeister]

Y'all keep this going about laying guns down. I think I'm actually about to learn something. It's entertaining, none the less.

[bret]

Y'all keep this going about laying guns down. I think I'm actually about to learn something. It's entertaining, none the less.

If you were the R.O. and a shooter intentionally placed a loaded Glock on the ground, muzzle downrange during the COF, what is your call if any?

[GrumpyOne]

Grumpy,

As an R.O. in the scenario I gave you, when a competitor places a loaded Glock on the ground during the COF, what would your call be if any?

Bret, I honestly don't know....I know the gun is safe,...but the rules are to be followed...

[grapemeister]

Y'all keep this going about laying guns down. I think I'm actually about to learn something. It's entertaining, none the less.

If you were the R.O. and a shooter intentionally placed a loaded Glock on the ground, muzzle downrange during the COF, what is your call if any?

I know what I would do, for now anyhow, but I'm staying out of this argument and just enjoying the show.

[GrumpyOne]

It is not de-cocked...

Explain that part.

I already have...perhaps you missed that part? http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=233813&page=3#entry2608703

[bret]

Grumpy,

As an R.O. in the scenario I gave you, when a competitor places a loaded Glock on the ground during the COF, what would your call be if any?

Bret, I honestly don't know....I know the gun is safe,...but the rules are to be followed...

What rule is not being followed?

[bret]

Y'all keep this going about laying guns down. I think I'm actually about to learn something. It's entertaining, none the less.

If you were the R.O. and a shooter intentionally placed a loaded Glock on the ground, muzzle downrange during the COF, what is your call if any?

I know what I would do, for now anyhow, but I'm staying out of this argument and just enjoying the show.

As an R.O. you should be able to answer it and use the rule book to back up your call.

[ac4wordplay]

Point is, USPSA considers the Glock to be a "double-action" gun (regardless of whatever semantics arguments one wants to try to apply to it), and Glock shooters have to apply the double-action rules, where they apply. You know it, we know it, and nobody is going to apply different rules to Glocks, M&Ps, XDs, and any other striker-action guns. Continuing to push semantics isn't going to change anything.

If you choose to place a striker gun on the ground, simply follow the rules in the book, and you'll be okay.

And a "DAO" gun CAN'T be cocked, by definition, so none of this applies to them.

I agree...but how do you hammer/striker down, or even de-cock a Glock before placing it on the ground, other than unloading it and pulling the trigger on an empty chamber?

What rule says a Glock or other striker fired gun has to be unloaded and de cocked for a competitor to place it on the ground?

8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols:

8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged.

8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.

Grumpy,

Forget about putting the gun down part-way through the stage - this is more interesting and entirely consistent with your point:

When you perform RO duties for a Production competitor with a Glock, and you give the MR command, I'd expect them to load the Glock (for a loaded gun start stage), chamber a round, holster (for a holster start stage), and wait for the command sequence of AYR? Standby, (beep). Do you dictate that they must comply with 8.1.2.2 by then unloading, pressing the trigger (to satisfy "de-cocked"), and then inserting the magazine (without chambering a round)? Do you start them from this position (empty chamber, "de-cocked") so that you and the competitor have achieved compliance with 8.1.2.2?

[GrumpyOne]

Right now, I see 2 ways it could go....DQ, or no DQ...I could support either way...

DQ for grounding a loaded gun without it being fully de-cocked...NO DQ for the gun being in the ready condition (although I think the ready condition, by the rule, is not entirely accurate either (as the ready condition also says de-cocked).

[frgood]

Ouroboros

[grapemeister]

Point is, USPSA considers the Glock to be a "double-action" gun (regardless of whatever semantics arguments one wants to try to apply to it), and Glock shooters have to apply the double-action rules, where they apply. You know it, we know it, and nobody is going to apply different rules to Glocks, M&Ps, XDs, and any other striker-action guns. Continuing to push semantics isn't going to change anything.

If you choose to place a striker gun on the ground, simply follow the rules in the book, and you'll be okay.

And a "DAO" gun CAN'T be cocked, by definition, so none of this applies to them.

I agree...but how do you hammer/striker down, or even de-cock a Glock before placing it on the ground, other than unloading it and pulling the trigger on an empty chamber?

What rule says a Glock or other striker fired gun has to be unloaded and de cocked for a competitor to place it on the ground?

8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols:

8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged.

8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.

Grumpy,

Forget about putting the gun down part-way through the stage - this is more interesting and entirely consistent with your point:

When you perform RO duties for a Production competitor with a Glock, and you give the MR command, I'd expect them to load the Glock (for a loaded gun start stage), chamber a round, holster (for a holster start stage), and wait for the command sequence of AYR? Standby, (beep). Do you dictate that they must comply with 8.1.2.2 by then unloading, pressing the trigger (to satisfy "de-cocked"), and then inserting the magazine (without chambering a round)? Do you start them from this position (empty chamber, "de-cocked") so that you and the competitor have achieved compliance with 8.1.2.2?

By no means do I know it all and I'm very open to learning something. It kind of appears that I may have made the wrong call, which was no call at all, in the past,but I want to continue reading back through the tread and sort things out. This is interesting, and I didn't mean to joke about that part.

Whoops, replied to the wrong post.

Edited May 20, 2016 by grapemeister

[GrumpyOne]

Point is, USPSA considers the Glock to be a "double-action" gun (regardless of whatever semantics arguments one wants to try to apply to it), and Glock shooters have to apply the double-action rules, where they apply. You know it, we know it, and nobody is going to apply different rules to Glocks, M&Ps, XDs, and any other striker-action guns. Continuing to push semantics isn't going to change anything.

If you choose to place a striker gun on the ground, simply follow the rules in the book, and you'll be okay.

And a "DAO" gun CAN'T be cocked, by definition, so none of this applies to them.

I agree...but how do you hammer/striker down, or even de-cock a Glock before placing it on the ground, other than unloading it and pulling the trigger on an empty chamber?

What rule says a Glock or other striker fired gun has to be unloaded and de cocked for a competitor to place it on the ground?

8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols:

8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged.

8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.

Grumpy,

Forget about putting the gun down part-way through the stage - this is more interesting and entirely consistent with your point:

When you perform RO duties for a Production competitor with a Glock, and you give the MR command, I'd expect them to load the Glock (for a loaded gun start stage), chamber a round, holster (for a holster start stage), and wait for the command sequence of AYR? Standby, (beep). Do you dictate that they must comply with 8.1.2.2 by then unloading, pressing the trigger (to satisfy "de-cocked"), and then inserting the magazine (without chambering a round)? Do you start them from this position (empty chamber, "de-cocked") so that you and the competitor have achieved compliance with 8.1.2.2?

No, I don't...and no one would either....but the point remains, that pistol is cocked...Technically, by the rules, you can't start a competitor using a striker fired gun on a loaded start...

[grapemeister]

Y'all keep this going about laying guns down. I think I'm actually about to learn something. It's entertaining, none the less.

If you were the R.O. and a shooter intentionally placed a loaded Glock on the ground, muzzle downrange during the COF, what is your call if any?

I know what I would do, for now anyhow, but I'm staying out of this argument and just enjoying the show.

As an R.O. you should be able to answer it and use the rule book to back up your call.

By no means do I know it all and I'm very open to learning something. It kind of appears that I may have made the wrong call, which was no call at all, in the past, but I want to continue reading back through the tread and sort things out. This is interesting, and I didn't mean to joke about that part.

[bret]

Right now, I see 2 ways it could go....DQ, or no DQ...I could support either way...

DQ for grounding a loaded gun without it being fully de-cocked...NO DQ for the gun being in the ready condition (although I think the ready condition, by the rule, is not entirely accurate either (as the ready condition also says de-cocked).

How can it be a DQ?

The gun is placed on the ground in the ready position.

[GrumpyOne]

Right now, I see 2 ways it could go....DQ, or no DQ...I could support either way...

DQ for grounding a loaded gun without it being fully de-cocked...NO DQ for the gun being in the ready condition (although I think the ready condition, by the rule, is not entirely accurate either (as the ready condition also says de-cocked).

How can it be a DQ?

The gun is placed on the ground in the ready position.

It is not de-cocked....

[bret]

Y'all keep this going about laying guns down. I think I'm actually about to learn something. It's entertaining, none the less.

If you were the R.O. and a shooter intentionally placed a loaded Glock on the ground, muzzle downrange during the COF, what is your call if any?

I know what I would do, for now anyhow, but I'm staying out of this argument and just enjoying the show.

As an R.O. you should be able to answer it and use the rule book to back up your call.

By no means do I know it all and I'm very open to learning something. It kind of appears that I may have made the wrong call, which was no call at all, in the past, but I want to continue reading back through the tread and sort things out. This is interesting, and I didn't mean to joke about that part.

The correct call per the rules is the R.O. does not interfere or stop the shooter for placing a gun in the ready position on the ground if they stay within 3 feet and no safety rules are violated.

[motosapiens]

Y'all keep this going about laying guns down. I think I'm actually about to learn something. It's entertaining, none the less.

If you were the R.O. and a shooter intentionally placed a loaded Glock on the ground, muzzle downrange during the COF, what is your call if any?

i don't make a call at all. a striker fired pistol is considered to be safe in that condition, just like a 1911 on safe or an external hammer gun with the hammer fully decocked.

I love the rules, and I get that 8.1 doesn't really exactly cover every nuance of striker-fired guns, but I don't think it's sporting to try to twist and distort the rules in order to screw over shooters, even glock shooters. the same condition they are allowed to start in is fine for them to set the gun down in order to get up or whatever.

[waktasz]

If it's a DQ to put it on the ground while loaded, it's also a DQ to holster it during the COF.

Hell, it's a DQ to holster it after Make Ready.

[motosapiens]

Point is, USPSA considers the Glock to be a "double-action" gun (regardless of whatever semantics arguments one wants to try to apply to it), and Glock shooters have to apply the double-action rules, where they apply. You know it, we know it, and nobody is going to apply different rules to Glocks, M&Ps, XDs, and any other striker-action guns. Continuing to push semantics isn't going to change anything.

If you choose to place a striker gun on the ground, simply follow the rules in the book, and you'll be okay.

And a "DAO" gun CAN'T be cocked, by definition, so none of this applies to them.

I agree...but how do you hammer/striker down, or even de-cock a Glock before placing it on the ground, other than unloading it and pulling the trigger on an empty chamber?

What rule says a Glock or other striker fired gun has to be unloaded and de cocked for a competitor to place it on the ground?

8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols:

8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged.

8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.

Grumpy,

Forget about putting the gun down part-way through the stage - this is more interesting and entirely consistent with your point:

When you perform RO duties for a Production competitor with a Glock, and you give the MR command, I'd expect them to load the Glock (for a loaded gun start stage), chamber a round, holster (for a holster start stage), and wait for the command sequence of AYR? Standby, (beep). Do you dictate that they must comply with 8.1.2.2 by then unloading, pressing the trigger (to satisfy "de-cocked"), and then inserting the magazine (without chambering a round)? Do you start them from this position (empty chamber, "de-cocked") so that you and the competitor have achieved compliance with 8.1.2.2?

No, I don't...and no one would either....but the point remains, that pistol is cocked...Technically, by the rules, you can't start a competitor using a striker fired gun on a loaded start...

this is the mother of all facepalms. I suggest you try to not start a striker fired gun at the next major match using your logic and see what the RM says about it.

[racerba]

No, I don't...and no one would either....but the point remains, that pistol is cocked...Technically, by the rules, you can't start a competitor using a striker fired gun on a loaded start...

Technically, the pistol is NOT cocked on a striker fired guns...what it is is that the striker is now resting on the trigger bar ready to be pulled as in DA condition...pulling the trigger does not release the firing pin from a cocked position...pulling the trigger pulls the striker back to a point which the trigger bar then releases the striker...completely different than a SA condition.