shooter slips and falls down. do you stop them?

[Sandbagger123]

let say a shooter slips and fall down on a stage. gun is in hand and pointed in safe direction. Do you stop them to see if they are ok? i assume if you stop them and they are ok they get a reshoot. if they stop themselves it scored as is. or do they get a reshoot automaticlly?

So what does one do in these situations?

[CodyAxon]

You let them keep shooting unless they did something to DQ them.

[Nik Habicht]

Clock's running, shooter's problem to (safely) solve. Safety warnings may be appropriate, remind yourself that the command is "Stop" in case they do something unsafe.

[Southpaw]

If there was no unsafe gun handling (dropped gun, 180, finger in trigger guard, sweeping, etc.) then you don't stop them. Shooter can get up and finish the stage or stop if he/she would like to (score as shot). No automatic reshoot for falling, if that were the case lets just say people would suddenly become much clumsier .

I fell recently at a major match , got up, finished the stage. Then went and found some band aids for my cut up hand

Edited May 18, 2016 by Southpaw

[PatJones]

I've finished a stage on my @ss from a muddy shooting box with more than an inch of standing water in it. I lifted up my feet so I wouldn't get a penalty for foot faults.

[ktm300]

Saw Chris Tillley fall at SC state one year. He was running on the 90 plants his feet, they don't stick, he ends up in the air feet almost as high as his head. In the air he turns the gun square down range, lands on his ass, pops back up instantly and finishes the stage. He still beat my time but it was fun to watch.

Stop can be used for a lot of things but not just a fall.

[Ray_Z]

It ain't broke, don't fix it.

[bret]

No you don't stop them.

If you do stop them they get a resort.

If they stop themselves they don't get a resort.

Why would you consider stopping them if the didn't violate any safety rules?

Edited May 18, 2016 by bret

[GrumpyOne]

I see where he wants to stop them ( to verify that the shooter is not seriously hurt), but no, don't stop until they do something that would get them DQ'ed.

[scottlep]

The only time an RO should talk to a shooter during a run is to say STOP because they committed a DQ-able offense, because their gun malfunctioned/had a squib leaving the gun in an unsafe condition, shooter has inadvertently lost eye/hearing protection, range equipment failure, shooter commits a forbidden action. Other than that an RO should never talk to the shooter between the standby command and the IYAFUASC command.

[perttime]

I can imagine situations where a RO could think that a range equipment failure caused the fall. A prop that couldn't take the weight of the shooter. Maybe even dirt from previous shooters' shoes making a platform slippery?

But normally, a fall is the shooter's problem, unless something DQ-able happens.

[frag316]

Clock's running, shooter's problem to (safely) solve. Safety warnings may be appropriate, remind yourself that the command is "Stop" in case they do something unsafe.

Saw Chris Tillley fall at SC state one year. He was running on the 90 plants his feet, they don't stick, he ends up in the air feet almost as high as his head. In the air he turns the gun square down range, lands on his ass, pops back up instantly and finishes the stage. He still beat my time but it was fun to watch.

Stop can be used for a lot of things but not just a fall.

The only time an RO should talk to a shooter during a run is to say STOP because they committed a DQ-able offense, because their gun malfunctioned/had a squib leaving the gun in an unsafe condition, shooter has inadvertently lost eye/hearing protection, range equipment failure, shooter commits a forbidden action. Other than that an RO should never talk to the shooter between the standby command and the IYAFUASC command.

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say "only stop a shooter when they've done something DQ-able."

If a competitor falls and you're not sure whether they still have control of the gun, go ahead and stop them, in my not-so-humble. The worst that happens is they get a reshoot for RO interference. The best outcome is that you find they did not have control of the gun and they don't try to salvage what's left of the stage with the gun in an unsafe position or condition.

Additionally, if the fall is bad enough, I think I'd probably stop the competitor if I was worried they were injured beyond scrapes and bruises. Yeah, I know--that's on them to stop themselves. But if you're not sure if they're going to need assistance to clear the stage, why not just be a proactive and considerate RO and stop them to better assess the situation? Again, the worst outcome is that they get a reshoot for RO interference. The best outcome is that the competitor (and the RO) can properly assess their physical condition and then take the precautions to safely clear them from the stage and administer aid.

Reasonable people can disagree, and someone will likely ask Troy his opinion (if he doesn't weigh in himself), but I don't think this has to be a binary solution set. If the RO is the least bit concerned the competitor or the gun might be in an unsafe position or condition, it's their responsibility to stop the stage and assess the situation off the clock.

[scottlep]

Clock's running, shooter's problem to (safely) solve. Safety warnings may be appropriate, remind yourself that the command is "Stop" in case they do something unsafe.

Saw Chris Tillley fall at SC state one year. He was running on the 90 plants his feet, they don't stick, he ends up in the air feet almost as high as his head. In the air he turns the gun square down range, lands on his ass, pops back up instantly and finishes the stage. He still beat my time but it was fun to watch.

Stop can be used for a lot of things but not just a fall.

The only time an RO should talk to a shooter during a run is to say STOP because they committed a DQ-able offense, because their gun malfunctioned/had a squib leaving the gun in an unsafe condition, shooter has inadvertently lost eye/hearing protection, range equipment failure, shooter commits a forbidden action. Other than that an RO should never talk to the shooter between the standby command and the IYAFUASC command.

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say "only stop a shooter when they've done something DQ-able."

If a competitor falls and you're not sure whether they still have control of the gun, go ahead and stop them, in my not-so-humble. The worst that happens is they get a reshoot for RO interference. The best outcome is that you find they did not have control of the gun and they don't try to salvage what's left of the stage with the gun in an unsafe position or condition.

Additionally, if the fall is bad enough, I think I'd probably stop the competitor if I was worried they were injured beyond scrapes and bruises. Yeah, I know--that's on them to stop themselves. But if you're not sure if they're going to need assistance to clear the stage, why not just be a proactive and considerate RO and stop them to better assess the situation? Again, the worst outcome is that they get a reshoot for RO interference. The best outcome is that the competitor (and the RO) can properly assess their physical condition and then take the precautions to safely clear them from the stage and administer aid.

Reasonable people can disagree, and someone will likely ask Troy his opinion (if he doesn't weigh in himself), but I don't think this has to be a binary solution set. If the RO is the least bit concerned the competitor or the gun might be in an unsafe position or condition, it's their responsibility to stop the stage and assess the situation off the clock.

I didn't say only stop if they did something DQ-able. I listed the reasons from the rules when an RO has the authority and duty to stop a shooter. Helping them dust off and get their pride back in check isn't one of them. If they fall and their gun is rendered unsafe or their gun is dropped or goes into a DQ-able position/direction, then the RO must stop the shooter...or as you said "If the RO is the least bit concerned the competitor or the gun might be in an unsafe position or condition, it's their responsibility to stop the stage and assess the situation off the clock."

[teros135]

No you don't stop them.

If you do stop them they get a resort.

If they stop themselves they don't get a resort.

Why would you consider stopping them if the didn't violate any safety rules?

No, if you stop them it's not an automatic reshoot. If you stop them for an unsafe gun, for instance, and it's actually unsafe, no reshoot. See the list of conditions for stopping the shooter in scottlep's post above (#10).

I would also agree with frag316's comment about possibly stopping a shooter who seems to be seriously injured. His/her condition would probably be rather obvious for that to happen, and in that case it would be the right thing to do. Most of us know when we're hurt and will either stop or adjust (although a few brave souls might try moving on with a broken leg and might need prodding to stop).

We had a case a while ago at a local multi-gun where an older gentleman was becoming obviously fatigued and out of breath; he could barely lift his shotgun (long-barreled, heavy) but kept trying. We were concerned about safety (and his health) and stopped him; he acknowledged how rough he was feeling and thanked us. He took a break and then finished it with pistol only.

[Vlad]

It depends.

If I think the shooter MIGHT end up in a dangerous situation and I can stop it, I will. Worst case, that is RO interference and they get a reshoot. So what?

I once physically stopped a shooter from going head over heals getting up at the end of a 3gun stage, He lost his footing and was about to pole vault down the hill over his rifle. Would he have broken the 180? Dunno, the dude is a top tier shooter, he may have been fine. But I could make sure it didn't happen so I did.

You use your best judgment. If I can safely intervene and I believe a safety issue MAY happen if I don't then I will intervene. I rather the shooter get a reshoot then someone get hurt.

[jrguar]

Keep in mind as the RO you are there to assist the shooter...I have had a few shooters fall while I was running them... make a quick assessment if they are OK ....can always provide guidance on their safe recovery...let them get shooting again.. I have had one shooter who was so out of sorts I stopped him, there was no unsafe gun handling but I felt there might me if he continued..helped him sort himself out and let him re-shoot.

[Doug H.]

As long as there is no safety issue I would not stop a shooter who has fallen. I have seen many, some pretty painful. The shooter has to make the decision to continue or retire. Perhaps at a local match with new shooters you would stop them and let them reshoot but at a big match the ROs should not be giving out freebees.

Doug

[frag316]

As long as there is no safety issue I would not stop a shooter who has fallen. I have seen many, some pretty painful. The shooter has to make the decision to continue or retire. Perhaps at a local match with new shooters you would stop them and let them reshoot but at a big match the ROs should not be giving out freebees.

Doug

Again, I'm not saying you stop every competitor who falls. But if the RO has the least bit of doubt in their mind the competitor can safely continue, I think it's the RO's responsibility to stop the competitor and sort things out, rather than potentially letting it ride and turn into a bad situation.

[ATLDave]

I have seen more than one shooter finish the stage safely and well enough to salvage some match points after falling, sometimes pretty spectacularly.

Again, I'm not saying you stop every competitor who falls. But if the RO has the least bit of doubt in their mind the competitor can safely continue, I think it's the RO's responsibility to stop the competitor and sort things out, rather than potentially letting it ride and turn into a bad situation.

OK, a competitor falls while you're running the timer. You have doubt in your mind. But they haven't swept themselves, haven't broken the 180, haven't AD'ed, have their finger outside the trigger guard. You stop them. Are you going to give them a re-shoot for RO interference and prejudice the other competitors who maybe ran that part of the course a little slower to avoid falling? Or are you going to hand a bunch of FTE's and mikes on them because you stopped them before they finished the COF? Or maybe you're going to send them to the queen of dairy despite having committed no DQ-able infraction?

[d_striker]

Here's a related question. What if they fall and place the gun on the ground in order to get up and then pick the gun up. Is that considered a dropped gun?

[AJE]

You let them keep shooting unless they did something to DQ them.

Yep.

I've fallen down on a stage, then got back up and finished.

[AJE]

Here's a related question. What if they fall and place the gun on the ground in order to get up and then pick the gun up. Is that considered a dropped gun?

No.

Rule# 10.5.3

"Note that a competitor who, for any reason during a course of fire, safely and intentionally places the handgun on the ground or other stable object will not be disqualified provided:,,,,"

[bret]

Here's a related question. What if they fall and place the gun on the ground in order to get up and then pick the gun up. Is that considered a dropped gun?

No

[frag316]

I have seen more than one shooter finish the stage safely and well enough to salvage some match points after falling, sometimes pretty spectacularly.

Again, I'm not saying you stop every competitor who falls. But if the RO has the least bit of doubt in their mind the competitor can safely continue, I think it's the RO's responsibility to stop the competitor and sort things out, rather than potentially letting it ride and turn into a bad situation.

OK, a competitor falls while you're running the timer. You have doubt in your mind. But they haven't swept themselves, haven't broken the 180, haven't AD'ed, have their finger outside the trigger guard. You stop them. Are you going to give them a re-shoot for RO interference and prejudice the other competitors who maybe ran that part of the course a little slower to avoid falling? Or are you going to hand a bunch of FTE's and mikes on them because you stopped them before they finished the COF? Or maybe you're going to send them to the queen of dairy despite having committed no DQ-able infraction?

So, if you're the RO and you aren't sure that safety isn't compromised, but competitive equity is soooooo important that you're willing to waive that doubt?

*shrugs* Your call.

In my mind, anything potentially impinging safety is worth thinking about if you have doubt. I look at it like the targeting rule in college football--I'd rather call it and be criticized than not call it and have something bad happen.

[sfinney]

If they did not DQ while falling, and you stop them anyway, its RO interference and they get a reshoot. IMHO.