shooter slips and falls down. do you stop them?

[bret]

To prove there is no live round in the chamber. That applies to all of the various firing systems we allow.

I think you have to maybe pull back from looking for a direct, 1-to-1 relationship/comparison between hammer-fired and striker-fired pistols.

We were talking about DAO pistols, not necessarily the difference between striker and hammer fired...

A Glock is not DAO, it is Striker fired.

[GrumpyOne]

To prove there is no live round in the chamber. That applies to all of the various firing systems we allow.

I think you have to maybe pull back from looking for a direct, 1-to-1 relationship/comparison between hammer-fired and striker-fired pistols.

We were talking about DAO pistols, not necessarily the difference between striker and hammer fired...

A Glock is not DAO, it is Striker fired.

Striker fired or not, it is DAO...by definition.

[teros135]

Point is, USPSA considers the Glock to be a "double-action" gun (regardless of whatever semantics arguments one wants to try to apply to it), and Glock shooters have to apply the double-action rules, where they apply. You know it, we know it, and nobody is going to apply different rules to Glocks, M&Ps, XDs, and any other striker-action guns. Continuing to push semantics isn't going to change anything.

If you choose to place a striker gun on the ground, simply follow the rules in the book, and you'll be okay.

And a "DAO" gun CAN'T be cocked, by definition, so none of this applies to them.

[bret]

To prove there is no live round in the chamber. That applies to all of the various firing systems we allow.

I think you have to maybe pull back from looking for a direct, 1-to-1 relationship/comparison between hammer-fired and striker-fired pistols.

We were talking about DAO pistols, not necessarily the difference between striker and hammer fired...

A Glock is not DAO, it is Striker fired.

Striker fired or not, it is DAO...by definition.

I disagree.

[GrumpyOne]

To prove there is no live round in the chamber. That applies to all of the various firing systems we allow.

I think you have to maybe pull back from looking for a direct, 1-to-1 relationship/comparison between hammer-fired and striker-fired pistols.

We were talking about DAO pistols, not necessarily the difference between striker and hammer fired...

A Glock is not DAO, it is Striker fired.

Striker fired or not, it is DAO...by definition.

I disagree.

You are entitled to your opinion...

[teros135]

For those who are newer to the sport, the striker guns (Glock, M&P, XD, Sig P230, etc.) are considered "double action" because the trigger pulls the striker backward against the spring pressure until the sear (cruciform plate contact to the vertical striker bar) releases the striker and fires the cartridge. Glock is thus "double action". It's not "DAO" - that's a gun, like some of the snubnose, "hammerless" (i.e., hammer not exposed) revolvers or the Beretta 92D/96D, that can only be fired double action (trigger pulls the hammer back and then releases it, in the same stroke) but can't be cocked for single-action firing (trigger pull only releases the hammer).

[GrumpyOne]

Point is, USPSA considers the Glock to be a "double-action" gun (regardless of whatever semantics arguments one wants to try to apply to it), and Glock shooters have to apply the double-action rules, where they apply. You know it, we know it, and nobody is going to apply different rules to Glocks, M&Ps, XDs, and any other striker-action guns. Continuing to push semantics isn't going to change anything.

If you choose to place a striker gun on the ground, simply follow the rules in the book, and you'll be okay.

And a "DAO" gun CAN'T be cocked, by definition, so none of this applies to them.

I agree...but how do you hammer/striker down, or even de-cock a Glock before placing it on the ground, other than unloading it and pulling the trigger on an empty chamber?

[GrumpyOne]

For those who are newer to the sport, the striker guns (Glock, M&P, XD, Sig P230, etc.) are considered "double action" because the trigger pulls the striker backward against the spring pressure until the sear (cruciform plate contact to the vertical striker bar) releases the striker and fires the cartridge. Glock is thus "double action". It's not "DAO" - that's a gun, like some of the snubnose, "hammerless" (i.e., hammer not exposed) revolvers or the Beretta 92D/96D, that can only be fired double action (trigger pulls the hammer back and then releases it, in the same stroke) but can't be cocked for single-action firing (trigger pull only releases the hammer).

Can you cock a Glock to where the trigger pull only releases the striker?

[bret]

Point is, USPSA considers the Glock to be a "double-action" gun (regardless of whatever semantics arguments one wants to try to apply to it), and Glock shooters have to apply the double-action rules, where they apply. You know it, we know it, and nobody is going to apply different rules to Glocks, M&Ps, XDs, and any other striker-action guns. Continuing to push semantics isn't going to change anything.

If you choose to place a striker gun on the ground, simply follow the rules in the book, and you'll be okay.

And a "DAO" gun CAN'T be cocked, by definition, so none of this applies to them.

I agree...but how do you hammer/striker down, or even de-cock a Glock before placing it on the ground, other than unloading it and pulling the trigger on an empty chamber?

What rule says a Glock or other striker fired gun has to be unloaded and de cocked for a competitor to place it on the ground?

[teros135]

Under 10.5.3, the competitor can safely and intentionally place the handgun on the ground or other stable object, provided that "the handgun is in the ready condition as specified in Section 8.1" (among other options). For the striker guns, that would be the same as when it was holstered at MR, with the mag in, round chambered, and finger outside the trigger guard, under the double-action rules.

In that condition, the Glocks et al. can't go off (unless the trigger is pulled, of course). That's one of the conditions of the Feds certifying modern guns for safety, like the "flying saucer" test in which the gun is thrown spinning through the air and lands on concrete without going off. That's the purpose of the trigger safety and the internal safeties.

[GrumpyOne]

Point is, USPSA considers the Glock to be a "double-action" gun (regardless of whatever semantics arguments one wants to try to apply to it), and Glock shooters have to apply the double-action rules, where they apply. You know it, we know it, and nobody is going to apply different rules to Glocks, M&Ps, XDs, and any other striker-action guns. Continuing to push semantics isn't going to change anything.

If you choose to place a striker gun on the ground, simply follow the rules in the book, and you'll be okay.

And a "DAO" gun CAN'T be cocked, by definition, so none of this applies to them.

I agree...but how do you hammer/striker down, or even de-cock a Glock before placing it on the ground, other than unloading it and pulling the trigger on an empty chamber?

What rule says a Glock or other striker fired gun has to be unloaded and de cocked for a competitor to place it on the ground?

8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols:

8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged.

8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.

[teros135]

For those who are newer to the sport, the striker guns (Glock, M&P, XD, Sig P230, etc.) are considered "double action" because the trigger pulls the striker backward against the spring pressure until the sear (cruciform plate contact to the vertical striker bar) releases the striker and fires the cartridge. Glock is thus "double action". It's not "DAO" - that's a gun, like some of the snubnose, "hammerless" (i.e., hammer not exposed) revolvers or the Beretta 92D/96D, that can only be fired double action (trigger pulls the hammer back and then releases it, in the same stroke) but can't be cocked for single-action firing (trigger pull only releases the hammer).

Can you cock a Glock to where the trigger pull only releases the striker?

Nope. That's part of the reason the striker trigger system can't be made to be as slick as the famed 1911 trigger. The 1911 is sear-hammer only mechanism (as are the revolvers, when in single-action mode - cocked), but the striker guns have to pull the striker back.

[bret]

Point is, USPSA considers the Glock to be a "double-action" gun (regardless of whatever semantics arguments one wants to try to apply to it), and Glock shooters have to apply the double-action rules, where they apply. You know it, we know it, and nobody is going to apply different rules to Glocks, M&Ps, XDs, and any other striker-action guns. Continuing to push semantics isn't going to change anything.

If you choose to place a striker gun on the ground, simply follow the rules in the book, and you'll be okay.

And a "DAO" gun CAN'T be cocked, by definition, so none of this applies to them.

I agree...but how do you hammer/striker down, or even de-cock a Glock before placing it on the ground, other than unloading it and pulling the trigger on an empty chamber?

What rule says a Glock or other striker fired gun has to be unloaded and de cocked for a competitor to place it on the ground?

8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols:

8.1.2.1 Single action chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged.

8.1.2.2 Double action chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.

10.5.3 says you can.

A Glock is Striker Fired, no hammer.

Edited May 20, 2016 by bret

[GrumpyOne]

Under 10.5.3, the competitor can safely and intentionally place the handgun on the ground or other stable object, provided that "the handgun is in the ready condition as specified in Section 8.1" (among other options). For the striker guns, that would be the same as when it was holstered at MR, with the mag in, round chambered, and finger outside the trigger guard, under the double-action rules.

In that condition, the Glocks et al. can't go off (unless the trigger is pulled, of course). That's one of the conditions of the Feds certifying modern guns for safety, like the "flying saucer" test in which the gun is thrown spinning through the air and lands on concrete without going off. That's the purpose of the trigger safety and the internal safeties.

And the ready condition as defined for the glock is "chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.", which technically it isn't de-cocked...

[teros135]

Point is, USPSA considers the Glock to be a "double-action" gun (regardless of whatever semantics arguments one wants to try to apply to it), and Glock shooters have to apply the double-action rules, where they apply. You know it, we know it, and nobody is going to apply different rules to Glocks, M&Ps, XDs, and any other striker-action guns. Continuing to push semantics isn't going to change anything.

If you choose to place a striker gun on the ground, simply follow the rules in the book, and you'll be okay.

And a "DAO" gun CAN'T be cocked, by definition, so none of this applies to them.

I agree...but how do you hammer/striker down, or even de-cock a Glock before placing it on the ground, other than unloading it and pulling the trigger on an empty chamber?

What rule says a Glock or other striker fired gun has to be unloaded and de cocked for a competitor to place it on the ground?

8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols:

8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged.

8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.

The Glock doesn't have a hammer, so there's no hammer to decock. And the striker is "de-cocked"; it's not in a "capable of firing" position.

[bret]

Under 10.5.3, the competitor can safely and intentionally place the handgun on the ground or other stable object, provided that "the handgun is in the ready condition as specified in Section 8.1" (among other options). For the striker guns, that would be the same as when it was holstered at MR, with the mag in, round chambered, and finger outside the trigger guard, under the double-action rules.

In that condition, the Glocks et al. can't go off (unless the trigger is pulled, of course). That's one of the conditions of the Feds certifying modern guns for safety, like the "flying saucer" test in which the gun is thrown spinning through the air and lands on concrete without going off. That's the purpose of the trigger safety and the internal safeties.

And the ready condition as defined for the glock is "chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.", which technically it isn't de-cocked...

There is no hammer in a Glock.

[GrumpyOne]

Under 10.5.3, the competitor can safely and intentionally place the handgun on the ground or other stable object, provided that "the handgun is in the ready condition as specified in Section 8.1" (among other options). For the striker guns, that would be the same as when it was holstered at MR, with the mag in, round chambered, and finger outside the trigger guard, under the double-action rules.

In that condition, the Glocks et al. can't go off (unless the trigger is pulled, of course). That's one of the conditions of the Feds certifying modern guns for safety, like the "flying saucer" test in which the gun is thrown spinning through the air and lands on concrete without going off. That's the purpose of the trigger safety and the internal safeties.

And the ready condition as defined for the glock is "chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.", which technically it isn't de-cocked...

There is no hammer in a Glock.

I agree, there is a striker, but is it not cocked? Partially cocked is not de-cocked...

[teros135]

What it comes down to, regardless of semantics or suppositions or implications or whatever, is that the striker guns are holstered at Make Ready in a certain condition, and that condition is the same as is allowed by 10.5.3.4. No need to beat this to death.

[bret]

Grumpy,

If you are the R.O. and a competitor goes prone for a stage and places a loaded Glock on the ground.

What would you do?

[GrumpyOne]

Point is, USPSA considers the Glock to be a "double-action" gun (regardless of whatever semantics arguments one wants to try to apply to it), and Glock shooters have to apply the double-action rules, where they apply. You know it, we know it, and nobody is going to apply different rules to Glocks, M&Ps, XDs, and any other striker-action guns. Continuing to push semantics isn't going to change anything.

If you choose to place a striker gun on the ground, simply follow the rules in the book, and you'll be okay.

And a "DAO" gun CAN'T be cocked, by definition, so none of this applies to them.

I agree...but how do you hammer/striker down, or even de-cock a Glock before placing it on the ground, other than unloading it and pulling the trigger on an empty chamber?

What rule says a Glock or other striker fired gun has to be unloaded and de cocked for a competitor to place it on the ground?

8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols:

8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged.

8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.

The Glock doesn't have a hammer, so there's no hammer to decock. And the striker is "de-cocked"; it's not in a "capable of firing" position.

A 1911 is not capable of firing from half cock, yet holster that gun at half cock and what happens?

[grapemeister]

A Range Officer doesn't have to wait until an unsafe act to occur before stopping a shooter. Our primary job as a RO is to keep everyone safe. I don't think I would be able to live with myself if someone took a bullet in the skull and I as a RO had the opportunity to keep that from happening but didn't because at the time there was no actual unsafe act.

I don't know if you are talking about my scenario, but believe me that everyone there was in agreement that I did the right thing. Actually, I don't recall seeing a scenario presented so far in regards to this topic where I wouldn't have stopped the shooter, too.

A guy is following the rules yet he is moving with the gun at 178°.

What reason is there to stop him?

Well, I explained it quite well I think in my previous post. Shoot enough matches and/or work enough matches and you'll understand. If not, please don't be an RO.

I have shot a few hundred matches, worked major matches as an R.O. I know and follow the rules.

Part of being an R.O. is following the rules, not making your own up or adding to the rules.

Stopping a shooter based on what you think they may do is unreasonable and I gave you an example of where an R.O. induced a D.Q., luckily the shooter had his finger off the trigger and the safety on while he was moving, yet broke no rules until the R.O. stopped him because he was close to 180.

In regards to your scenario, I wasn't there and I probably don't know all the facts, but given what you've said, I may be in agreement with you to a certain extant. I'm not a RM, but for argument sake if I was an RM at the time and the RO had no other reason to stop the shooter other than the shooter was about to break the 180, I would have a serious disagreement with the RO. Of course, the shooter would still be disqualified for breaking the 180, after the fact. That's purely on the shooter for breaking the 180.

Edit to add: Hate to beat a dead horse, but just to clarify. You would be in agreement that if a shooter was fixin (Southern term) to point a gun at somebody, or possibly hurt themselves, you would stop the shooter, correct?

Edited May 20, 2016 by grapemeister

[GrumpyOne]

Grumpy,

If you are the R.O. and a competitor goes prone for a stage and places a loaded Glock on the ground.

What would you do?

That depends on whether he de-cocked it before placing it on the ground....you guys are missing the point...it says hammer down OR de-cocked...the only time a Glock is de-cocked is on an empty chamber after the trigger has been pulled...Semantics? Yes...but be that as it may, it is not de-cocked until that moment...

[bret]

The Glock doesn't have a hammer, so there's no hammer to decock. And the striker is "de-cocked"; it's not in a "capable of firing" position.

A 1911 is not capable of firing from half cock, yet holster that gun at half cock and what happens?

Not enough information to answer without making assumptions.

[Flexmoney]

5.2.2 Competitors carrying their handgun in a holster must have an empty
magazine well, and the hammer or striker must be de-cocked. Anyone
found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range
Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective
action shall be made.

[bret]

Grumpy,

If you are the R.O. and a competitor goes prone for a stage and places a loaded Glock on the ground.

What would you do?

That depends on whether he de-cocked it before placing it on the ground....you guys are missing the point...it says hammer down OR de-cocked...the only time a Glock is de-cocked is on an empty chamber after the trigger has been pulled...Semantics? Yes...but be that as it may, it is not de-cocked until that moment...

Scenario,

I am using a Glock I fire a stage with a prone position and have another shooting area I will shoot in after that position.

I place the loaded Glock on the ground, get up from the prone position never getting further than 2 feet from the gun, the muzzle is pointed down range and I am behind the gun.

What would you do?

The gun is loaded, placed on the ground intentionally and facing down range.